Everyday Motion: A podcast for the emerging motion designer

EM - Podcastt - EP001 - Mike Labrow
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EM: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Everyday Motion Podcast, where we guide the emerging motion designer on their way to becoming an everyday motion designer. My name is Kyle Harder, and I'll be your host as I talk with these everyday motion designers. Today I'm speaking with motion designer, . Mike Labrow he's an incredibly talented motion designer.

He went freelance in the fall of 2022 and hasn't looked back. I wanna thank Mike for being our first guest on the podcast today. We sit down and discuss everything from improving your craft, finding your place, at a company or an agency, making time for personal work and so much more. Let's not waste any more time, and let's get to our conversation with Mike Labrow.

Mike, before we get into this conversation, can you give us just a brief little. Background about you.

Mike Labrow: Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So I'm I live in Manchester and I'm from Stockport, which is like a suburb of Manchester. I've been in the industry for about 10 years, I guess. When I finished university, I just went straight in [00:01:00] as a designer.

So I started as a graphic designer, an in house education technology company in the UK. And then my role slowly had a bit more motion into them as it went on. And then I did a little bit of freelance motion design and then had my first full time role. And then it's just slowly gone more and more motion into being a freelance motion designer, which I am now.

EM: Awesome. Yeah, no, thanks for that. So I guess starting at the end right there, what you're saying, you're a freelance motion designer full time now, and we've known each other for since 20 into 2022. Like, how has freelance been for you so far? Based on what your expectations were,

Mike Labrow: I think it's been great. I really enjoy it.

It's a very different type of work. And I think the one thing that I wanted out of it was variety. I think with usual jobs, you have, you can get stuck with the same clients and there's only so many variations of thinking you can do around the same client. It's hard to G yourself off every time you have to do the same project.

[00:02:00] So for me, I just really wanted to get my little design brain into loads of different things and loads of different clients. And so far, it's been really enjoyable and it's been more social than thought it would be. I thought it would be quite siloed, but obviously like meeting people like yourself and because the whole thing about it is you have to get out there and network and stuff.

So actually you're really connecting with people. In the industry and agencies and stuff in a way that I just wasn't doing when I was full time. And so that side of it's been really good and it feels like I'm slowly developing a bit of an identity of what I am as a designer. Whereas again, when you're a full time role, you're working for them.

So you don't really have that as much.

EM: Wow. Okay. A lot of good stuff there. And you kind of hit on something that I'm really curious about, especially as you've been in the industry for about 10 years now. So. The identity aspect of it, when would you say you felt confident and maybe you just said the answer to, but when would you say that you felt confident identifying [00:03:00] as a motion designer, like a professional everyday motion designer?

Mike Labrow: Uh, I guess the first actual full time motion design role wasn't until four years ago. Which is weird because the whole 10 years I've been doing bits and bobs of motion. But yeah, it wasn't really until four years ago where I actually had a motion design title. And I guess that's when I started telling people that's what I did for a living.

But it's weird when you talk to people who aren't in the industry. I don't know if you have this. And when you say you're a motion designer, people are like, is that, what is that? Is that like animation? So it feels like sometimes it's like a loaded question. You have to do like a paragraph to explain what you actually do.

EM: Yeah, you have to tell them like, Oh, it's like graphic design, but animated, or it's like, Yeah,

Mike Labrow: it's like somewhere in between graphic design and animation. And then I usually just show them some work. But yeah, I guess as soon as I got that full time role, that's when I really started to believe, okay, this is it.

Because I think my roles in previous jobs had always been like [00:04:00] 5050. And I'd always much preferred the motion side. But I guess I just thought maybe I didn't have the skill set to jump to that full time. Or whatever, but yeah, it's been a great jump. And that's really where I found what I feel most comfortable doing, really.

EM: Yeah, that's pretty, that's pretty powerful. And it's interesting to see that, like, it's in the grand scheme of your career so far, it's been more recent that you've started to feel that confidence, like that solidify your identity. In a way, as a motion designer, I'm curious too, if we were to look back a bit further, what would you say contributed to that?

I'm sure you had to build up the craft, you had to build up the skills, like what were some of the things that you think really contributed to like you being able to identify confidently as a everyday motion designer?

Mike Labrow: I mean, the barrier for entry is like so high, like it's, I guess I just always thought that animation was something I could do a bit of, and I couldn't make that into a full time career.

Yeah, because it's like, You jump into After Effects or anything like that. And it's so much to learn. And I think like for every time I was in a job that was just like graphic design and then a bit of motion, [00:05:00] it would be like, okay, here's a project we need this doing, and maybe it's a bit of video editing with like rotoscope in.

And then it would literally just be like, okay, gonna jump to YouTube. I'm gonna learn rotoscope in, and then that next project, okay, I can sort of do this. And then every project would have something new like that. Oh, okay, we need this character. We need his arm to move up and down. Okay, I'm going to learn puppet tool and then you slowly get this like Arsenal of tools that you can use and then I think it just slowly click You know you're using less and less tutorials and actually I can figure out the way to do this the best path for creating this Thing myself and then I think that was when the confidence hits.

It's okay Maybe I don't need these things anymore and you sort of can just do it on your own

EM: Yeah, I totally get that because when you're in that tutorial educational space of oh, I don't know what this is I know I'm resourceful enough to go to YouTube or wherever to like figure out how to do it or ask someone but I feel like That level of confidence when you're able to like leave that behind and you can take [00:06:00] Like, say, if you're inside After Effects, like, specifically, and it's, oh, I don't know how to get this exact kind of effect, but I know if I maybe use a little bit of fractal noise, a little bit of a displacement, a little bit of blur or something, I can probably get in that realm.

And I feel like that's, that, like, in your case, it seems like that kind of thinking, in a way, is when you started to really, Cement yourself as, Oh, I know what I'm doing in a way, just like a tutorial motion designer.

Mike Labrow: Yeah, I think that is it. Yeah. Once you surpass that and you feel like you can actually, you know, go like attack problems with your own mind rather than just, you know, Googling something just to try and get it done.

It feels good. Like I also, it's like great to see. I think it's one of one of the really fun things about what we do is that there's so many different ways to get to the same solution. And it's always cool seeing people's files. Like I love when you get to work with other motion designers and you see how they build things because then you can just get to the end of it and you know, compare how they've done it.

EM: Oh 100 [00:07:00] percent like I'm on a Booking right now where like 3d is not my strongest skill set, but I'm like learning. I'm like, I'm still in that tutorial phase of specifically cinema and I'm working with a 3d motion designer who's like leading the project and he's super nice and giving me like a little bit of guidance along the way, kind of like what you're talking about being able to see behind the curtain of, oh, I can sure.

I can follow tutorials and like set up scenes like this, but I don't necessarily know. Why I'm setting them up like this, but being able to see like their thought process is like, it's so, I think that's one of the cool parts about freelance too, right?

Mike Labrow: Yeah, it totally is. Like you jump into different companies.

I mean, sometimes you're obviously just doing the project just yourself and that can be really fun and rewarding, but also like on the bigger projects where you get brought in and you're part of a team. And that team is filled with amazing designers. It's so cool to see how they work and not like passing files.

EM: So you hit a good point there when you're like, when you're talking about passing files back and [00:08:00] forth to each other, it makes me think I wouldn't, I guess now, so I'm on autopilot when it just happens, but because I'm just so used to it. I remember used to. When I first started out, and I'm curious about your experience here is that I was like, so scared to like, ask, Oh, do we do things through Google Drive?

Do we do things through this app or whatever? What kind of file do I give you? Like, I didn't know the right questions to ask. I just thought I had to ask all of them. And I, yeah, I like it. I'm curious for you, and now it's a little bit different because I feel like, oh, I know the right questions based on, oh, hey, do you need this kind of file?

Do you need to work through Dropbox? Do you need to whatever that situation might be like? I guess when you were first starting out, you're getting into the agency world a little bit to where you just lost. At that point, I like how to just actually work.

Mike Labrow: Yeah, totally. It'd be like which program we're going to use for certain things.

And if you say, Oh, I'm going to use Illustrator for that, you know, you sort of anticipating them to turn [00:09:00] around, you're going to use Illustrator. Oh, you're a crap designer. Like you don't know, you don't know anything. You know, you're just like on the knife edge of just worrying too much. But I just think that it's the same thing about different ways to get to the same solution.

Like as long as you got The final product looks fine. I just don't see it. It's not really an issue, is it? So you just get that confidence back in you slowly project by project And I think it does help to work with multiple people doesn't it? Like work with different people to see how they do it, but different agencies all do different things.

So you've just got to ask them See what works for them and hope that you can find an in between

EM: totally. And see, when you say it like this, I think it's because we've been around for a minute now, you know, it sounds so easy. So, so I'm curious, like if, say, if you were to this emerging motion designers, this role in my head of the motion designer, that is either a student.

They're entering the industry for the first time, or they're coming from a different industry, not necessarily age [00:10:00] dependent. They probably, if they're coming into this without that experience, like we've had, they probably are probably feeling a little lost. Like we did. I'm curious. Like, what do you think they could do?

So maybe it's still that confidence in themselves. It's probably not overnight.

Mike Labrow: I mean, it's just asking questions, isn't it? Like the worst thing in the world is when you like supervising someone and then they don't ask any questions and then they go away for a couple of days and do the wrong thing and a question like a two second question would have fixed it like two days ago.

I think if you're ever feeling out of place or you don't know something, just ask someone, either, you know, your boss or you can just reach out to people on LinkedIn or wherever. And like, it's such a friendly community. Everyone's so willing to help each other and connect and chat. It's just well worth just jumping into those conversations, maybe just schedule a call and just get as much information as you can.

I think the worst thing you can do is be worried that you don't know the answer and then just burrow away and do it. You can just ask someone

and then you can get on with it. [00:11:00]

EM: Yes, I agree with that 100 percent because I got fired once for not doing that. And, uh, it is, uh, yeah, I have to. So I was like an editor at this time.

I was living in Philadelphia. So I was doing working on a documentary project with someone. Um, So I was like trying to be an assistant editor. Cause that's like the ranks you go up. Like you start at kind of like, depending on where you're at in the country, it's like you start like a post production assistant and then you move up to maybe assistant editor and the, or junior editor.

And then you go to like full editor. So I was in this stage where I was trying to be hired as an editor for more like legit. Jobs as opposed to like my 12 an hour city job editing government videos. Yeah. And I was working with a mentor of mine at the time and he hired me because I guess he saw some potential in me.

So fast forward and we're in actually Princeton, New Jersey, which is where the university of Princeton is. And I, there's like a green screen footage and I think they hired me for a couple of [00:12:00] reasons. One, I knew how to make coffee at the espresso machine too. I. Knew a little bit of after effects because I this was like 2014 or 15, I think.

So I wasn't like fully fledged and after effects. I've just I read the manual. Essentially, I didn't really know the like, how, like the motion design type stuff or VFX really. So my task was to. Like ro or both roto and key out people for, or key out backgrounds for green screen. And yeah, I, they gave me plenty of time looking back, but it took me, I just didn't ask questions.

So like, or if I was running into a roadblock, I would just like, keep on scouring, uh, like YouTube or at that point it was called linda.com. Now it's LinkedIn Learning. Mm-Hmm. . And yeah, so I was just like burying myself into a whole deeper and deeper and eventually it led to a point where. Like, I had already lost so much progress on the project.

I was holding the project back from going forward. And it was [00:13:00] that moment where you kind of own it up to yourself. Oh, I'm the one who screwed up. And I, like, what do I do? Like, you're kind of obviously a little ashamed.

Mike Labrow: Yeah, totally. And the more time you don't ask questions, like if you leave it like a day, you're like, oh, maybe I can't, I've missed my question window.

There's no time now I can do it. So I just have to dig even deeper into YouTube and find the answer to this. But it's just not true, is it? Like, at any point, the question is the right time. If it's just going to save, because the supervisor or whatever is always going to know, aren't they? Like little questions like that, they can just find the answer for so quickly.

EM: Oh, yeah. And I think that kind of transparency is key because one, it shows that you're just able to communicate what's happening, like what you're going through. Cause I feel like if you don't, you're setting yourself up to lose trust and probably a really good connection for whatever reason. And cause I've, I lost like the guy who was my mentor was a friend as well.

So [00:14:00] it got to a point where. He wasn't able to trust me anymore at a professional level, which there's probably some, yeah, there's probably some toxicity there where it overlaps with a personal life a little bit, but I guess just keeping it on the work side of things. It was like that was that was rough because I saw this person as a mentor and me not being able to just do the what is now for me very simple of, hey, I'm having trouble with this.

I can't do this. We might need to hire someone else to do this part. I ended up wasting so much money where they could have just hired someone to fix it in a day. And so that was like definitely a life lesson. Like I blacked that out in my mind sometimes because I just forget. Maybe

Mike Labrow: yeah,

EM: exactly. Maybe it's some kind of trauma therapy I'm going through, but that was, I think you hit a really good point is it's that simple of just like asking a question because when you're first starting out, it's scary, right?

Like it's scary to be the new person in the room. It's scary to feel and look inferior to everyone else, even though like. You are [00:15:00] not only an experience and not as a person, it's just, it's really scary.

Mike Labrow: I think this job as well, it's, it does require confidence because it's like some of the stuff is subjective and I know that every job does, but it feels like sometimes you It's not about ego.

You need to have confidence in yourself and when you start a new job, it can be quite, quite brittle. And it's, I completely agree, like a couple of months at least when you're like, Oh, I want to show them this is why you hired me and all that sort of stuff. But I think at the end of the day, for any manager, they just want to see someone who's willing to learn.

Like they don't want to see someone who's siloed. They want to see someone who Can recognize where their gaps are and are looking to fill them rather than just someone who's going to be on their own, not working as a team. Like it just doesn't make any sense to try and silo yourself like that.

EM: Yeah, for sure.

Cause if they're having those habits and they work like that as a junior or a new motion designer, how are they going to be then as a [00:16:00] senior or later on in their career? They're probably still going to be the same if they just never learn like how to talk or how to communicate.

Mike Labrow: Yeah, absolutely.

EM: So I kind of want to shift gears a little bit.

I want to talk a little bit about like the craft because I know you mentioned you started out like in doing design and then you started doing a bit of both and now you're doing. pretty much motion only, like you probably do emotion only for the most part of the past few years, right?

Mike Labrow: Yeah. Um, I still, I think when I went freelance, I sort of advertised myself, it's like design and animation.

And then I got a design job and I was like, God, I don't know why I did that because I don't enjoy that at all anymore. Um, but I think it tends to With the clients I have, they tend to like that I come from a design background. So if things need to be edited or fixed and stuff, I've still got a bit of a design eye.

EM: So yeah, you mentioned, so you have that design background that you said clients enjoy you having, cause you have that eye, that perspective. I'm curious, like, how would you, how does that kind of play into your [00:17:00] everyday Work when you're working with clients of you have this, we all have this like ability to animate.

We have this ability to make things move and we have an eye for like composition that way. Like how does design feed into that for you? Cause backstory, I go, I, as we were just talking about, I come from an editing background, so I had that pulse on like timing was like my strong suit, whereas like design wasn't.

So that's been more like a skill I've had to. Learn a lot more coming into motion. So yeah, how does design feed into like your motion today?

Mike Labrow: Yeah, it's nice to be able to Design your own style frames and stuff like that like when people come to me for a full project like I'm able to do it from start to finish and And I do enjoy doing that.

I also do recognize that There are designers that are better than me and it's really valuable to have people working on both sides. Like I think a couple of projects we worked with like a proper art director and it's so valuable when people just are able to stick to what [00:18:00] they do best. Um, and I do feel like animation is what I do best now rather than design.

But it's just, I think clients like the ability that you can do both. I'd still say that I'm doing 80%, 90 percent motion. But like when people come to me and they need the style frames doing or whatever, and they've maybe got a smaller budget so they can't hire both, then it's just a bit of an all encompassing jack of all trades skill to have.

EM: At the end of the day, like if you're doing 90 percent motion on a project, you're always going to have to learn how to layout type. Or for some reason you're going to get client feedback. So if they're like, Oh, we actually don't need this thing in the frame anymore. And if they take that out and it has negative space in it, right?

You're like, Oh, how do I recompose this frame to like work? So, yeah, I think that maybe it's a common place. But for me, it wasn't in the beginning of how important that design skill. Was because that's just another way of communicating, right? Like we communicate through [00:19:00] animation of like how to make people or how to feel what to look at all these things.

But there's like a design side that I feel like if you're not able to communicate that way first, then yeah, you're not really going to set yourself up for success after that.

Mike Labrow: Yeah, totally. But no, it's good. It's good. It's a nice way of getting into it. I think I was lucky that it came from that path because my first job was like.

Some of the projects were just like laying out type brochures or like marketing materials or like web pages and it's just aligning things into grids, nice, neat and tidy things. And then you can have the imagery be the lead focus. So I think that sort of stuff, you do that on repeat for a few years and then it's just like riding a bike.

So once you get into motion, it's just, you can align things and then. That if that stuff comes really quickly, then you can just focus on the actual animation and making that as fun and engaging as possible.

EM: Yeah, I feel like it's like the what cost of entry to being able to do motion [00:20:00] is that like you have to do those reps like it's like if you're in the gym, right?

You can't just go straight to like doing heavy squats or like heavy bench pressing or something like that. You have to do the baby steps of laying out the type. You have to learn a little bit about color harmony and how everything is. Okay. Works together and you're in your style of work, and we're going to get more into this with the personal work here in a little bit, but because this is something I actually, I wouldn't be able to speak to very well, I would love to kind of hear from your perspective of you have a good pulse on like color, harmony, composition, animation, design, all this stuff.

So when it comes to a lot of your more, I guess, work that you love making with that texture, like how do you find the like harmony with texture and. Color, because for me, I just do what look feels good compared to what's out in the world, but I don't have a mindset like I don't have that designer's eye when it comes to, oh, this kind of texture or this overlaid with this element, if that makes sense.

Mike Labrow: Well, I guess it's [00:21:00] just like a lot of iteration and it's gathering textures that feel right. Like I've, I just like slowly gather, like I've got a Adobe color library. If I see a cool project with a cool color, I just color pick that and then I'll add that to my library. And then I've just got slowly built up this sort of color wheel.

Same for the textures, like you see a texture pack or other people doing sort of stuff that looks cool. And same for the tutorials, like I still try and keep an eye on different tutorials and if something new has come out, because there is like randomly There's effects that come in and out of trend, isn't there?

For the longest time, it was that like, turbulent displace or roughened edges, the noise, the gradient noise, you know, then you'd alpha matte that into a character and then it's still going but not as popular as it was. But I think that the texture just brings so much personality to it, you know, if you just sort of loop a texture moving back and forth and put that in like a simple circle that's bouncing up and down, it just feels so much more interesting to me than if it was a color or a gradient.

It [00:22:00] just feels like it. It's just got so much more personality to it. So it's just bringing those to life. And yeah, like I was saying, it's just something I've slowly trying to gather along and just, just get into my arsenal.

EM: Yeah. And I'm for me, like when I see something like that, whether it's your work or someone else who is like really strong in that area, I always feel like I can just touch it like that.

It feels a bit more like tactile than say, you know, there's obviously the trendy gradients or the. There's like the whatever corporate style, of course, there's a whole different thing in terms of texture, but like that 2D kind of texture, like grit, like I love it because I feel like you can just. Play with it yourself if you wanted to or just like you just touch the corners or touch the edges

Mike Labrow: It just feel there's something just that feels a bit more fun to me about it It's like they're really super cool gradients with no noise or anything They are the animations like pin sharp.

They just look absolutely gorgeous But they just feel like, feel very digital. And I just like the sort of [00:23:00] lower key frames, the more textures, the noise on it. It just feels a bit more like it's got a bit more personality to it.

EM: Yeah, I totally feel that. And if I guess for me, it feels a bit more intentional, right?

Like it feels, I guess a lot of work is intentional, but that part specifically makes it feel like, Hey, you're making this. Animation or design choice of whether it's texture versus the like posturized time type effect or you're moving some keyframes. I feel like especially if you're not even using an expression or an effect and you're just actually moving some hold keyframes around.

That feels just a bit more intentional for me. You're really art directing your work. At that point, I don't think it's limited to just that, but like, do you find that you're able to art direct that a bit more versus other styles?

Mike Labrow: Yeah, I don't know why it is. I think that this is just the sort of thing that you fall into when you try and have your own style.

It's you're trying to fall into the things that feel the easiest for you to do, like when you pick up Photoshop or something and you've got to create an idea. It's the, what is the [00:24:00] thing that's going to make that as smooth as possible to get it created. And for me, it's just like the mixed media thing is so flexible.

Like you can just put a shape there. You can just store the edges. You can put some texture into it. You can use bits of illustration. You can hand draw some bits that go around it. But the imperfections lend themselves to the style. Like it doesn't need to be perfect, which I enjoy. Like when you're doing everything at a lower frame rate.

It doesn't really need to be smooth. Your mind fills in the gaps in between the movements. So I think for me, it's just, it just feels like a nice style to work in. Like I still, when you get clients with different styles and stuff, you always just have to jump to whatever they want to do. And that's completely fine.

But for my personal work, I just find that it's like a, an easy way to get the idea created.

EM: Yeah, I totally agree. And, but I feel you've had some pretty cool opportunities in the past year since you've gone freelance, where you've been able to apply your style to, to these big client projects like the Google.

Project [00:25:00] as well as the, you're going to have to correct me on the script that you did the video for,

Mike Labrow: Oh, uh, super resize me.

EM: Yeah. I would love to hear a bit more about that. Like, what was that kind of like talking with there's the Google project is one thing. And then I know you were talking with the developer for the super resize me script.

What, like, what was that? Like, did he, did they come to you asking? Hey, Mike, we want this style for this or how did that go?

Mike Labrow: So, let's, yeah, cards on the table for the Google project. I was hired by Remade, who had, they've got an incredible team, and they art directed the whole thing, and they provided a super cool animatic.

That was such a, such an amazing project to work on, because it was like what we were talking about before, when you get thrown into a team. Of just amazing every person who worked on that. It's just super talented But yeah, it was like it was about cyber cyber attacks And it was like a three part series for google and wall street journal So remade did the art direction [00:26:00] and then they hired a couple of animators.

It was me peter cobo and then That might have been it, I think it was just those two animating it. But they basically reached out to me just because they'd seen that I work in that style and say, hey, you're going to hop on. I think we chatted a few months before that and about a different project that fell through.

And then when this came up, I was super excited to get involved. But it was great. Like it turned out so good. That sort of project is just so fun to work on because they've got a bit of budget. I think most of my clients, when you're working with people, they're like, okay, how do we get this to look really good?

But we only want to spend a couple of days on it. And it's like, the reason it looks good is because we spend a lot of time on it. You know, all the little details, they require time and effort. There's no just like magic clickable and fix to make things look good. You need to put the work in and that's how you get the details.

And with that, we really got the time to hammer down. And each, I think like each scene was about five seconds and they'd take a day or two each. Which is [00:27:00] just, that's a long time to spend on five, 10 seconds of animation. But I think it looked really cool and it's just an amazing thing to be able to work on something like that.

The super resize me was like, that was another dream. That was like one of my first ones when I went freelancing. And it was Nick Dean who developed a bunch of scripts and other stuff like that for After Effects and Premiere. He'd reached out and said that he'd seen, he'd seen an individual post they'd done on Instagram of this like burger with human legs and every time it walks.

You know when I'm describing my work to people it really dawns on me how, how, why do I do, how can I do this for a living? But yeah, it was like a burger with human legs and he'd seen it and it was like, I'm gonna put out a advert for a After Effects script that I'm doing, and I just want that style, like, that style looks great.

If you can build a concept around this for like a 30 second video, that would be great. And that was like, for that to come in the first, like, month of freelancing, I was like, Okay. This is it. This [00:28:00] is exactly why I want to carry on freelancing. This is, you know, the exact sort of style I want to do to have this sort of autonomy of the trust that he's putting into me.

It was great. I think that project did really well and I'm chatting with him about doing something else soon as well. He's super nice guy and it's always great when people trust you to do The style you want to do,

EM: I think what you were just saying there about this people coming to you for your style, because they've seen it wherever you shared it, whether it's linked in instagram or your site.

So, when we're talking to this emerging motion designer on about, like, personal work, passion projects, develop your own style, what would you say to them to help them initiate that for themselves? Or at least to make it a practice? Because you obviously, you didn't make the style overnight. Like, this is years of interest.

Practice and motivation, like all this stuff. So what would you have to say to that?

Mike Labrow: Yeah, I mean, I think it is really important to have your own identity [00:29:00] or not so much identity, but just like a goal of the work that you want to do. Because I think like when you're doing nine to five jobs, you're basically just putting on whatever hat the agency or the client wants you to have.

And that's fine. You're getting paid for a job. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's good to know where you want your career to go and what work you want to be doing. And ultimately, whatever work you put out there on LinkedIn or social media or whatever, whatever work you put out there, that is the clients that, that's what's going to attract the clients, what I mean?

If you only post 3D work, they're only going to come to you for 3D work. You can't say, Oh, I want to get into short films, but I'm posting this. It's like your online presence needs to really reflect what you want to do and what you want to be hired for. So I think I'd heard that in a podcast or something, and then.

From that, I just started slowly putting out little experiments or little doodles or whatever, and then slowly gotten into, into the groove more and [00:30:00] more and then realized, okay, this is, this would be great to be hired for this. You know, I'd love to get paid just for doing fun, stupid stuff. Cause you know, I mean, I want to be just doing the silly stuff.

Like I want to be doing fun stuff that I really enjoy spending time doing. And there's, you know, like I say, if you're getting paid for a different job, that's serious and a bit more boring, That's fine. That's, it is a job at the end of the day, but I think it's good to have the aim long term of knowing what appeals to you most as an artist.

And then you can slowly be working towards that. And I think freelancing, it's a bit easier because then you can be slowly trying to find clients in that field, and then you can slowly be making the steps that way. But yeah, I can't undervalue like personal projects enough. I think if you're not getting paid gigs in the stuff that you want to be getting done, the only real way of getting paid gigs is by doing personal projects that show off to those clients.

You know, this is what I can do for you. Please come to me and hire for me.

EM: Yeah. I think that's [00:31:00] about as clear as you need to be about it. I don't think there's any kind of like magic potion or magic button you can press to be like, Oh, you know what? I'm doing a lot of 3d work, but I want to be hired for this more textured mixed media thing.

They're just going to come to me. No, one's going to do that. If you're not showing the work, how are people going to know that you can, you know, Do the work.

Mike Labrow: Yeah. You can't just put on your on your skills. This is what I can do. You have to show people. I think it's a good, it's a good thing and a bad thing because you know, like when people are applying for all the jobs, especially in this day and age, people are doing like pages and pages of applications, all this different stuff.

But like for motion designers, for like creatives, you generally just need to show you, showreel. I've helped. hire people before. And like you see their CV, you see their resume, but like you really just want to see their work. Like that's all that matters. And if you can show people that you're competent and that you have a passion for this style of thing, then you're going to get hired.

EM: Yeah, [00:32:00] you had a good point there about the CVs and resumes like with compared to the real like at this day and age, like, I don't really care what the resume says, to be honest, like, I don't care if they did

Mike Labrow: mine in years. I can't remember the last time someone asked for me. And I remember when I did get asked, I was like, what do you want to see this for?

Do you want to see how many GCSEs I got? This does not matter to what we do.

EM: And so you mentioned that you have hired people before, and you know, all you. Kind of really cared about was the real and at that point, when it comes to the resume and I see so many students stress over the resume, especially now that I'm teaching at a higher ed level, and I've talked to classes where a lot of students really put emphasis on their resume and.

I haven't updated, I've updated mine a little bit since I went freelance, but never, only if someone required it. I think it was more of a formality. It was like trying to be on a freelance roster for a corporation or something like that. Yeah,

Mike Labrow: exactly. That's the only time I think I've had to do it when [00:33:00] you're joining like different rosters.

EM: Yeah. So I guess if you were to like, say, talk to younger Mike or maybe this emerging motion designer that we're thinking about, like what, how would you advise them and where to put their efforts and both compared to a real of like maybe built up of personal work or passion projects because they probably haven't had the client work yet being in school for the most part versus trying to pad that resume, like what, what would you kind of advise them to do there?

Mike Labrow: Yeah. It is hard because. You need to get paid. You can't just sit there and make personal projects as much as we would all like to. But I think it's just finding the balance. I think doing personal projects is so key. I think it helps you sharpen your skills and it helps you figure out what you want to do.

And it also shows other people what you're most passionate about. So I would advise that above anything else. No one has ever asked me if I'm going for a job. No one goes. Oh, is that, was that a paid job? Oh, did someone get paid for that job? It doesn't matter, [00:34:00] I don't think, to most people because it's just you reflecting the sort of stuff you want to do.

So I think like a showreel is generally the most key thing, isn't it? If you can put together like a 30 second, 60 second max showreel to start handing out to people, then that's the best way into the industry really. I think you, you probably do need a CV when you first start now, just so that you've got it down.

But I do think they really get obsolete.

EM: I agree too. If it's a formality for a company like I see it, but maybe it's more like a background to see, Hey, what are some of the places you've worked? Maybe I could obviously check for references as a junior level. Maybe they just don't have that experience yet, but I'm sure you've seen it too.

When you've hired, uh, other create like young creatives is they probably try to pad on their resumes. They know, you know, All the software, they've used it at least at some point. And I'm like, I did this to grow

Mike Labrow: the bit when on the CV where you say Adobe Premiere, five stars out of five stars, [00:35:00] Adobe After Effects, five stars out of five stars, Photoshop, and you like listing all of the software.

I did that too. And it's just, I don't know why I did that. I don't know who's looking at that and going, Oh, my God, five stars on Photoshop. This kid get him in.

EM: Yeah, he rated his own work. Critics are raving about his photoshop experience. So with that in mind about the personal work for say, when you're first starting out, I know it's super easy for us and yourself to say, yeah, let's just go make personal work because you have a style.

You have this form of play that you're able to really. Lean into like, when these, when these people and these artists are first starting out, they have all these different obligations and things pulling at their time from your mind. Like, how are they supposed to build a structure, build a system for them to be able to produce this work and a consistent banner?

Because I'm sure we've all been in this, like, probably you included where you get so bogged down with maybe your 9 to 5 or even freelance work, where it's just the client or client work. That's not [00:36:00] your style. But you need the money. Like, it's really easy to fall out of that routine. Like, how would you advise them to build a routine off that when there's so much going on?

Mike Labrow: That is a hard question because I think last year was like the first full year of freelancing. And I think I posted on Instagram and LinkedIn maybe five times. So this has been my goal for this year to create some consistency. I think what I'm having success with at the moment is to just, it doesn't always have to be.

Something amazing like I've done like a little behind the scenes thing and that got like the most response I've ever had on anything and I thought that was just a way of extending the previous posts and Content and so I think like people love to see behind the scenes stuff. People just love to see You posting frequently, I think when you're looking at someone and seeing if they're worth a job to show it, to see them like active and constant, I think it's like a really valuable thing.

I think the thing that keeps me going with personal work is to just start it. [00:37:00] Just, I've got like a list of ideas that come every now and then you just write them down to make sure that when you do get a chance, you just sit down with it, put a couple hours into it and then just chip away at it. I think everyone would agree that.

The paid work always comes first and it definitely does. But when you have a couple hours here and there, just go chip away at it, come back to it when you've got a bit more time and then just try and set yourself some deadlines. If you can post once a week or once every couple of weeks, it feels really good to be in a routine and also The algorithms, the algorithm gods really appreciate it when you're posting frequently.

If you don't post, if you post once every six months, the post is just going to go down like a lead balloon and it's going to be really demoralizing. It's better in your head and better in terms of work to just be constantly posting and have a bit of consistency with it.

EM: Oh, yeah, because, yeah, so if you're just posting every once in a while, you're going to get that FOMO, like you're going to get that just self deprecating thoughts of why am I not posting more [00:38:00] this person like Mike is posting so often, like, how do I get to be that person?

But I think you hit it on the head. Well, I mean,

Mike Labrow: sorry, I was just going to say, in terms of the personal project last year as well, I'm like, I felt, found myself really guilty of just overthinking. Like I was just getting into this pit where I was like, oh, now it's been three months. It's got to be whatever I post now, it's got to be worth this three month wait as if my followers are just hanging on baited breath.

Just like, when's he going to post? It's just not like that at all. It's just. You've just got to just jump in and just put your foot forward, just get some stuff out there and just get on with it.

EM: That's what i'm like you see my linkedin feed. Mine is essentially a mike labrao fan club Where I

Mike Labrow: know I love it.

It's a great ego boost for me

EM: Hey, I just I love when fellow like friends and artists in the industry get to be seen more Especially when you're doing work that you enjoy doing because there can be So much pressure to put on the, maybe it's not as much anymore, but at least when I was coming up, the every days that, you know, people was [00:39:00] doing, but I think there's also the other side of that, which I think people talk about quite a bit is it sets like a expectation.

Oh, if you're not posting every day, or if you're not doing X every day, then like, what are you doing? You failed, but I don't, but

Mike Labrow: Yeah, 100%

EM: think the everyday part of that, it's all about context or context and perspective, because at least from my side, every day is a. Practice every day does not need to be a finished product.

Like what you're talking about, like you're talking or like you're talking about, like just doing the, just doing the reps, like every day, like getting in there, chip away at it. I think maybe that's the whole theme of this whole podcast, like the everyday motion designers, we're just doing this every day because we love it and we love doing this.

Mike Labrow: Going back to your, like, exercise analogy, if you don't run for six months, and then you try and run, you're gonna be, it's gonna be horrible, like, you're gonna collapse on the side of the pavement, like, you need to do the stuff every day, you need to [00:40:00] explore ideas and go through the design process. Like really regularly, especially with your personal work, because otherwise you really fall out of it and you can really lose your confidence and it can then just put you in a bad spot.

Even if you're not posting this stuff, it's nice to just work through an idea and just see where it goes. Like sometimes it won't go anywhere and that's fine, but at least it's out of your brain and you can feel like you're getting the runs in.

EM: Because if you're, I think that It's like debilitating when if you haven't been constantly practicing or getting these reps in, it's like when you try to come up to it and you get like that blank page syndrome.

It's like, what the hell do I make? It's if you're not and we've all had it. So if you're not constantly, like, I feel like your brain, your creative spirit, however you want to define it, like it needs that constant stimulation, at least, at least, Hey, just exposing it to other things and not just, I don't know, just every once in a while, treat it to a, treat it to an animation.

Like, or I mean, I guess it could be whatever [00:41:00] form you want it to be in, but I guess if your expectation is to just make something magical without having been constantly training in a way you're, you're setting yourself up for a very rough time.

Mike Labrow: Yeah, it just doesn't work and anyone who sees any kind of work and thinks that someone just sat down and did that Straight like from start to finish with no errors It's just not how any creative process works like you have to get out the crap ideas Like as quick as you can as early as you can and then you slowly then you slowly find Okay, actually, maybe this will stay Like I have so much absolute shite on my desktop, like half baked ideas that just never went anywhere, but you've got to get them out.

You've got to just do the rubbish version first, and then you can explore the good one.

EM: Wow. I think that's like pretty spot on. I think it'd be cool to kind of maybe shift topics a little bit from maybe the personal passion projects and personal work to The freelance life, and I'm sure there's an overlap for sure.

You know, you went freelance [00:42:00] shortly after I did, which I went freelance in August of 2022. Your official freelance was December, right? Of 2022. Or

Mike Labrow: yeah, maybe like November. Is that right? You were that, so when you were freelancing at we, the collective, that was your first like freelance gig. Is that right?

EM: No, that was technically my third, I think I've mentioned before, like this was my first time freelancing the right way and not just not barely getting by. Like I was actually building a system and a process for myself, but no, I had like my first gig in offer the month of August going into September and then I had a brief like one off project for a company here in Orlando and then, and then I jumped on we, the collective kind of at the same time, so September of 2022, so yeah, pretty early on.

So. Yes. Okay. November was kind of like your launch into it. Um, yeah, you and I have both have had like pretty successful freelance career so far. I'm like, I'm very grateful. I know it could dry up any minute, but I'm [00:43:00] loving this right now. So on the heels of that, since I've been talking to a lot more students, both in colleges here in Orlando and the ones that I'm teaching, and even like other artists that are trying to get into the industry, like freelance is like on the top of their mind.

And I get a little. Concerned when I hear that, because I feel like they haven't had, they haven't, I don't, I'm not saying the trauma, but they haven't been in through the trenches that you kind of, I think you have to go through when you first get into the industry from your eyes, would you say someone's coming fresh out of school to go right into freelance?

Would you think that would be like the right? Wait to do it or we are there

Mike Labrow: was a couple of lives from the university course and they start a studio straight from uni and I just thought that was the craziest thing in the world. I just think that you've got to go and obviously you learn at university but you don't really learn what it's like to work in an agency or anything like that until you work in one they don't really talk to you that much they talk to you about [00:44:00] concept and.

Doing the work, but the actual ins and outs of the business, you really need to go and do it yourself. I think I definitely don't think I could have gone into freelance straight away. I think it was only when I did that I felt confident enough to do it like after i'd Worked at different agencies i'd worked at in house as well I think you need like a widespread of experiences to then realize where you're going to fit into the system

EM: That's a really good point there.

Cause if you're coming straight out and like wanting to freelance, say you want to work with Buck or Oddfellas or insert big studio name, yeah, it's cool. It's appealing. You probably make really good money more than maybe you would have at a studio starting out, but you don't have that. Experience of how to communicate through a project like you don't like, is someone going to come to you and be like, say, if it's like an age thing, you're like 22 coming fresh out of college and they're like, Hey, we need you to take this project from beginning to end.

And then, like, you still have to have a money conversation. You have to have the project management [00:45:00] skills. You have to have to do all these things that you probably didn't really get from a client perspective in like university. So I get a little concerned sometimes because I mean, I guess maybe there's those unicorns that can do it and have done it, but

Mike Labrow: yeah, and all power to them if they can get away with it.

But I do just think there's just so much value, isn't there? Just working alongside other people, getting taught the systems day in and day out and also having your work, you know, critiqued by other designers and other people. Yeah. Creators, it's just, it feels like you really need to go through that rather than just being on your own from the get go.

EM: That's a big thing because usually my mind first goes to money. It's, we've talked a lot about like personal finance and how to manage money as a freelancer, like off of this episode. But the critique is a big thing that I didn't really get in college because I was in more of like a, like cinema studies, like theory based classes.

Class. So that was pretty cool. But I didn't really get that. I [00:46:00] didn't have that critique because I wasn't in design in motion yet, but I even from a film level, I didn't have that kind of critique being able to have that critique in a studio environment or wherever you can have that focused, really professional critique, I feel like it's so key because not only can someone just tell you how to make your work better, right?

It's like, how do you actually see. Receive that feedback. Are you going to try and defend every single decision that you made or are you going to just fight people like on it who have 20 years more experience than you that why you're right and they're wrong?

Mike Labrow: Yeah, yeah, like my first job, the creative director was great at this because it sort of taught me that I think when you go into design, sometimes you think that it's subjective, but I think like design is often solving a problem.

So quite a lot of the time there are objective decisions that you know are objectively better and I think hearing that it makes you like. Step away from the decision. Some of the critique a bit. You can't get personal about the work. You should feel comfortable and have strong skin when people are saying this doesn't work.

You [00:47:00] can't just go away feeling sad. Oh, I pitched my ideas and no one liked them. It's just you need to go away, take that critique, build on it and then find a better solution together. I think the sooner you can get that out of your mind and get better at taking that and just build it into the process, you're just going to become a better designer.

EM: Yeah, because if I feel like it's really easy for you to like, what's it called? Is it kill your darlings? Is that the like the term? Yeah, it took me forever to really understand that. I was always so precious with my work. What do you mean you don't like my lower third animation this way? I don't care if you're paying me.

But no, I'm right, like, yeah, for you that like you had that kind of coming out the gate out of university, like you had that kind of like guidance of like how to be critiqued. Do you think that you've been able to receive critique better? If that's a make sense of asking?

Mike Labrow: I think it goes from, I think the first sort of few times you do it, it's like, [00:48:00] it's a horrible experience because you're like, it's quite a personal thing or your artwork and stuff like that and what you're putting out there.

So it's like when you give the ability for someone to sort of rip it to shreds, it's quite a vulnerable position to be in. But you go from this scared position of being like, Oh, can you look at this? Can you tell me what's wrong? To actually being like, No, this person looks at it and they can help me make it better.

Sharing this process with other people does make the work better. It can either push the work in a good direction or it can make you feel more strongly that this is the correct way. Do you know what I mean? If you do feel really passionately about it and they're wrong, then you can discuss that and it, it helps you form that rationale in your mind.

So I think it's great and I think that's why, you know, going into freelance straight off, it's great. It's hard because you're not having those people to bounce the ideas around. And I think a few years of doing that at different agencies, it helps you go through that process more in your mind so that when you are looking at [00:49:00] your own work, you can have that internal critique session yourself.

Like it's obviously always better when you share it with other people, but you've done it so many times that you can see. You can see sort of objectively what needs to be changed and stuff. A

EM: hundred percent because you said something just a second ago about making the project better. I feel like a lot of times when newer artists are getting, starting out getting critique, they feel like, At least I know I felt this way.

I felt like I was being attacked personally. It's like, you're like a shit designer because you're not, you didn't think of this specific thing or this, but I like how you said, like, if you're kind of like framing it and like, what's best for the project or what is going to make this project or this animation design, whatever is going to make this better, then I feel like that's how you're able to remove so much more emotion from it and kind of not getting caught up in those.

It's in the weeds of, oh, do they hate me? Do they not like me? Yeah,

Mike Labrow: and I totally get that because it's not a, [00:50:00] it's not a nice feeling. I think it's hard to detach yourself emotionally, but I think it's just something you slowly go through. And if you can do it, then you become better as a result of it.

Because your work constantly changes. Yeah. And the client will, I always think that there's three quarters of the way through a project is when you really like it. And then the last 25 percent is when the clients like change in these little bits and you're like, Oh, I really wish we could have just stayed at this, like this last little bit, but ultimately like they're paying for it, aren't they?

So this is just. You have to be able to go through that back and forth and let people create what they want to create.

EM: I think that's really important because at the end of the day, it's sure if you have to follow their brief, you have to follow their feedback or whatever, because they're paying for it.

Because I think about it the other way. Sure, I have to do that. But on the flip side, I get to go make what I ever want for myself after this. Like I get to go. Exactly. Make my, my dancing duck or goose and, uh, was he a [00:51:00] bassist or was he

Mike Labrow: good? I, yeah, just four strings. I couldn't, I'm pretty sure that riff is played on a base, but I'm not 100 percent sure.

EM: Awesome. Awesome. So, you know, shifting towards the end of our conversation here, uh, what are some other kinds of ideas that you have maybe for some experimental projects or some passion projects, uh, for the rest of 2024? I'm sure you have some things under wraps or, um, or maybe there are just some kind of styles or different things that you're looking to play with.

Mike Labrow: So the last, the last few things I've done, um, have like a heavily based around music and that's been really cool, but they've been well received because I love music. I think they pair really well with motion. It sort of gets the best out of both. Gone are the days where you see these really expensive, cool music videos.

But I don't know. I think something along that lines. I did initially think that this year would try and get and try and do a music video and that's possibly still on the cards. But I think for the most part with the personal stuff [00:52:00] now, I think I'm just going to try and include some sort of audio or music tied with the idea every time.

It seems, I don't think it's a niche. I know that loads of people do this. I just think that it's bringing the best out of the work that I'm doing at the moment. So I just want to try and pursue that and see where it takes me, I guess.

EM: No, I love that because again, at the end of the day, you're just doing what you enjoy doing, right?

You're not doing this for anyone else. You're just doing this for Mike.

Mike Labrow: Yeah, it's just like trailing, trailing the idea that feels right at the time and then seeing what comes out of it. Like, it's that thing about overthinking. I'm just trying to, if it's, if it seems like it's going in the direction, then just keep going with it and then we'll see where it goes.

EM: Mike, thank you so much for talking with us, talking with us about your personal work, your background, a little bit more of your thoughts on everything. And you know, just sharing with us just a perspective of someone who really likes to incorporate a lot of play into their personal work, especially when you first starting out.

Yeah. I just want to say thank you for joining us. And where can people find you [00:53:00] online, like where, where's your work, where do you like to hang out?

Mike Labrow: Probably mostly on Instagram. So I'm on Instagram at Mike Labrow. Um, you can find me on LinkedIn as well. I post there. I won't post people towards my website because it's in dire need of an upgrade.

So just stick to Instagram for now. But yeah, thanks so much for having me, man. It's always a delight to chat to you. Yeah. We'll chat to you soon.

EM: I want to thank Mike Labrow so much for chatting with us today. And thank you so much for being the first guest on the Everyday Motion podcast. I highly recommend checking out his work on both Instagram and his posts on LinkedIn and don't hesitate to reach out.

He's an incredible guy and is always up for conversation. I hope you were able to take something valuable away from our conversation today and relate to it in a way that can help you on your journey to becoming an everyday motion designer. Thank you for being a fan of the show, and please subscribe to the show wherever you listen to your podcast.

You can follow the podcast on Instagram at everyday motion dot podcast. [00:54:00] Don't hesitate to reach out with any questions. Feedback. or any other way that you'd like to support the show. Today's music is brought to you by the artist Cosmonkey, and the song is titled Feel the Night. Also, I'd love to give a big shout out to Matthew Johnston for mixing today's episode, and another big shout out to a fellow motion designer, Maddie Alexander, for editing the episode as well.

Thank you both so much. This show would not be possible without your help. Thank you once again for tuning in and we look forward to sharing our next conversation with you. Now let's kick it to the music.