Everyday Motion: A podcast for the emerging motion designer

EM: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Everyday Motion Podcast, where we guide the emerging motion designer on their way to becoming an everyday motion designer. My name is Kyle Harter, and I'll be your host as I talk with these everyday motion designers. In this episode, I'm speaking with director, illustrator, and freelance motion designer Kelly Kurtz.

During our conversation, we talked about how to market yourself as a motion designer, giving yourself space to find what interests you when you're first starting out, transitioning into motion design.

Kelly Kurtz: I am so excited to be here and I've had so many good chats with you that I'm stoked that you started this podcast, Kyle.

EM: Thank you. No, I know. I know we've had a bit of like a scheduling, uh, out of like dual trying to figure out, you know, times for both of us life kept happening, but I'm really glad we're able to make it work now.

So, um, now Kelly, before we get too [00:01:00] deep into the conversation, cause we have a lot of. Really cool stuff to talk about today. Can you just give us a quick little overview? Like where are you from? Like how long you've been in the industry and, uh, and if you even want to segue into, you know, kind of how you got your started into the industry, I think, uh, we can take it from there.

Kelly Kurtz: Yeah. So I am located in Squamish, British Columbia, Canada, which is near. Vancouver, where Blendfest has traditionally been held. And I've been in the industry for about eight years, and I got into motion design a little bit later in life. I used to be a backpacking, canoeing, and rafting guide, and then I shifted into a creative role, and I went to Vancouver Film School, thinking that I was going to go into Like app and web development and I discovered motion design about three weeks into the program and shifted and really haven't looked back.

So

EM: yeah, thank you for that. No, it helps us kind of, you know, start to paint that picture that we're going to like, kind of fill in here. So you mentioned you were, you know, this, [00:02:00] uh, like backpacking guide, like starting out and then you transition into film and then to motion design. Like those are two very different worlds.

Like what was the interest that kind of said, Oh, let me try a film school out compared to like being in the outdoors.

Kelly Kurtz: Well, I had been in the industry for about 10 years and I knew I wanted to shift into something in a creative career. And I had come across this woman who was a sea kayaking guide for about six years and she ended up becoming a brand designer and she ran her own business.

She had two little kids around like six and eight and she could take on more work and The fall time and she would take less work in the summertime and she would create these just really cool projects. And I thought like I could see myself in that role. Like I, I loved seeing someone else in the outdoor industry shift to something that was completely different.

And I also had a huge. Interest in photography. So I found myself like coming home from trips and staying up until three o'clock in the morning, editing photos, because I just enjoyed [00:03:00] seeing the stories that would emerge and sort of like reliving the experiences that I just had. So I knew that it was something creative and I wanted to stay local to where it was, so I started looking.

In Vancouver and then I found the digital design program and it gave me options of choosing a few different areas. So that was really nice to kind of explore and then motion design was sort of the thing that emerged, which I think made more sense. To me now with the storytelling side and definitely with like the artistic side the photography really helped understanding 3d Even though I don't necessarily do that anymore, but like lighting composition storytelling like it all was there I just didn't realize that it would be really helpful in shifting into a creative industry, even though They look completely worlds apart.

EM: Totally. Oh, awesome. Okay. So we got like a great background there. Uh, and I love how you mentioned that, uh, tidbit of like staying up till 3am, you know, cause you just, we're having so much fun [00:04:00] kind of getting lost in the work. Uh, I feel like so many of us have those moments that we can like go back to when it kind of like clicked like a, that moment of like, Oh, I like being creative in this way.

I want to just do, you know, Nothing else, but like the rest of my life. Uh, So, you know, you mentioned, okay, you went to Vancouver film school and then transition into motion design. Um, you know, for context or some people who may not be familiar with Vancouver, I know it as, you know, it's, it's, A city that serves as like a New York, right backdrop and films.

I know Canada has, or if Vancouver for sure has like film incentives for filming feature films there. And I know it's like a gaming and VFX hub for, uh, I guess that kind of production and design. Like, did that kind of play a factor at all? Like, and you wanting to stay local for the market?

Kelly Kurtz: The main part was definitely lifestyle.

And also I didn't want to have to move across the country and expend a whole bunch of. [00:05:00] Money to try to go back to school. Whereas like, if this didn't work out, then I hadn't have like moved my entire life somewhere else. And because I was doing this later, like into my mid thirties, I just wasn't willing to take that risk.

Whereas if I was in my early twenties, like, yeah, I'd pick up and like move across country or move to a different country to try something new. But I think. Because I was doing it later in life, it was much more appealing to stay. And I think part of that was like, I checked out a few different schools, had had some conversations with folks, and Vancouver Film School had like a one year intensive program, which was very appealing, because then I wouldn't incur nearly as much debt as if I did a year and a half, or three or four years, which I'd already like, I'd already gone to university and had done the four years and had paid that debt off and was like, I don't think I want to do that again.

Am I, am I 30s? So I think that was part of it. And then once I kind of got in to school, then I started to understand the [00:06:00] industry a little bit more and it became more appealing after I got into it. So I, I wish I could say that that was like part of the decision making, but I think I was like uneducated on.

How much motion design would necessarily help and to like, I went in with a totally different idea of thinking like web and app and, um, came up with something completely different. So, yeah,

EM: wow, I know. I mean, I think that helps a lot because, you know, when people, you know, come into motion design or I guess any industry where they feel like found like their, um, I guess like their footing and like, it's like, oh, I want to, you know, Pursue this, you know, I think no matter what point in our lives that we come into it, we have different, you know, priorities.

We have different obligations, lifestyles, like, like you mentioned. And like, why would you want to move across the country when you've already, you've done the four year university thing? Why would you do that just for a year without like a. Like guarantee that it was going to like work out, you know? Um, so yeah, no, I totally get it.

So this kind of brings me to my next point, or I guess my next question [00:07:00] for you is, so as you're graduating school and like, you're, you know, ready to like throw yourself into the, uh, into the industry there in like the Vancouver Squamish area, what was it like, like, did you, did you have a hard time like kind of finding gigs or were you like being mentored by people?

What, what was that experience like for you?

Kelly Kurtz: It felt like forever. I had a really tough time trying to land a job. I felt like a lot of my schoolmates had landed jobs and that definitely plays with your head. You're like, Oh man, like I did so well in school. And I totally thought that I, and as well because I was a little bit older, so I had different life experience.

I thought that I would be able to land something, but it doesn't necessarily translate. someone landing a job or not landing a job. Like it's, it translates into what aligns with you or what doesn't align with you. And I found that a lot of the jobs that got nabbed up really quickly were with advertising agencies and it just wasn't the kind of work that I was looking for.

So [00:08:00] I didn't want to apply to those things. So I think that's part of why it took a little bit longer was like I was Being a little bit more specific with what I wanted. And it took me seven months before I finally landed a job. And my first job was with Best Buy Canada. It was basically working for tech, which is like the complete opposite of what I was looking for.

But at that point they were willing to take me on for like a, a decent enough salary for like an entry level position straight out of school. And Most of my first couple of jobs were like motion designer and video editor working on a video production team and a video editing team, which I was kind of curious about the live action, but I didn't know if that was like what I really wanted.

I would've loved to like get a job at, um, line test or Giant or something, but like my skills were not up to bar for that sort of thing. So I thought like, oh, maybe I'll get some experience and [00:09:00] then try to build up to it and see kind of where it went and. Yeah, it was, I mean, it was still a good experience, but I knew that it wasn't a company that was going to align with me.

And so I found the interview process really awkward. And I felt like I basically had to lie in terms of my long term intention. Like my long term intention was never to stay at Best Buy. And so I would answer questions about like what my long term vision for my career is. And I would say things like, Oh, the people are much more important than what I'm actually working on, which is partly true, but also partly not true.

Like,

EM: I

Kelly Kurtz: don't know about you, but I definitely found. Those first couple of like entry level things just to be so awkward, like it's, it's like so much pressure is placed on you to, to know what direction you're going in when really you're like, I just graduated from school. Like, I need to get out and feel some things out, but I can't tell you that because you're not going to hire me.[00:10:00]

EM: Yeah. Oh yeah. It's like, they want you to sit like, kind of like drink the Kool Aid and be like, Oh, I just want to be a part of this culture here. I just want to immerse myself in. I don't know, be best by Canada or whoever. Um, like, is that, is that kind of like the, the vibe that you're talking about? It's like, Oh yeah, it's what they're expecting out of you.

Kelly Kurtz: Oh yeah, definitely.

EM: Interesting. Okay, cool. So yeah, before we get too far down that field, like, you know, asking you about this emerging motion designer that this whole podcast is really focused on trying to get them from that point to becoming an everyday motion designer, kind of looking back at that point.

You know, what kind of advice would you give maybe to some of these emerging motion designers during the interview process? Because, you know, you don't want them to feel like, or I would hope that they don't feel like super awkward always trying to, I don't know, just interview themselves into a corner just to get a job, but I know they have to eat, right?

They have to pay bills. Like, do you have any, uh, [00:11:00] any kind of thoughts or insights on that?

Kelly Kurtz: I almost feel like I'm the wrong person to ask that because I'm so blunt sometimes that like, I feel like I'm the person who says the, I call out the elephant in the corner of the room when nobody else will call them out and that sometimes goes against me.

So, um, I mean, I, I, I didn't fully lie on my interviews by any means, like I definitely didn't lie about my experience, but I, I found the future questions were the ones that were the hardest to me, and I, I wish that I had the guts to be able to say like, I don't actually know what my long term vision is, I just got out of school, and I want to be able to test some things out, and this looks like a nice environment to be able to do that.

Like, I feel like that would be a decent enough answer. But I think because I hadn't had heaps of opportunities that looked appealing to me, I think I felt more compelled to just, like, regurgitate the Kool Aid, which probably is not the best advice to give someone, but [00:12:00] I don't know. It's a bit of a tough one.

EM: I didn't know that you're spot on because like, again, people have to pay bills. They have to, like, they have to get experience to have experience to apply to other places down the road. And I like what you're saying about the, um, I'm going to paraphrase here from what you said a second ago, but you know, the, the future, uh, looking forward to the future and trying to figure out like, Oh, am I going to be here or not?

That's a tough, tough question. Thing because you never know what's going to happen, especially what you're if you're like in your whether you're in your early 20s or later on in your career, and that's you like switch. It's like, I don't know, like life might throw me a wrench or something and I have to pivot.

I don't know if I'm going to be here. And also, I don't know if I like you guys yet. So

Kelly Kurtz: it's like an unfair question, regardless of whether you're like entry level or your senior level, like, They could say whatever they want and make themselves sound like the most amazing company. And when you get in, then that's when you get a feel for their culture, for the [00:13:00] workload, for how reality is going to be regardless.

And like, I just, that question just kind of drives me crazy. Cause it's like asking for a commitment. It's like, as if you went out on a first date with someone and you're like, so what's your commitment level for like life. And you're like, I don't know, this is our first date. Like, that's what it feels like to me.

EM: Yeah, no, that's. That's valid. And, um, like, especially you're, you're sharing your experience about feeling kind of like push into a corner, having to, you know, just regurgitate that Kool Aid, you know, you're doing this after already just having experience being an adult, right? Being in an industry in general, like the kids who are coming like fresh out of school with like, probably less life experience.

Uh, I guess I'm thinking about myself in this situation. I was like, Okay. Yeah, like I bow down to every whim, I'm going to do everything that you tell me to do and love it kind of deal. It's kind of, I don't know, maybe morbid, maybe kind of not super healthy, but [00:14:00] I don't think it should be that way. I think that's, uh, that's tough.

So I see what you mean by how it's hard to give advice to someone in that scenario, because I guess it kind of depends on who's trying to hire you.

Kelly Kurtz: I was going to say, I think a fair answer that should be acceptable regardless of the industry that you're in or the level is like, I want to come into this with a sense of curiosity.

I'm really curious to see like what your culture is and what working on this team would feel like. And I'm getting a good sense of that in this interview, but I'm going to need to get in and have a feel for it. And I think that's such a fair and valid answer. And somehow like. I've never been brave enough to say that in an interview.

So if you're listening and you are brave enough to say that, shoot me a message. Let me know how it went.

EM: I love that. I feel like that's like diplomatic. That's, um, you know, you're being, I wouldn't say neutral, but you're, it's an honest answer, but you're also not being too, um, blunt in a way that could be construed as like negative.

So I, I like that approach. [00:15:00] I hope someone takes that, um, approach. Runs with it because one of my first like real like motion jobs, uh, the boss asked what I, if I was going to be here in five years and I'm like, or no, he asked me if I was going to be in Orlando, which is where I live now for five years.

And, uh, I'm like, I think so. Like there was, it was just on the spot. And he said, we need to, we're trying to hire someone who's going to be here for five years. And I'm like. What, how do you even, that was just, that just blew my mind. I was only there for three. So, uh, it all worked out.

Kelly Kurtz: That's so tough. Oh my gosh.

EM: No, yeah. Thanks for sharing that insight there. Cause I know that's a tricky, that can be a tricky area for, uh, especially new professionals and I think in any industry to try and navigate, especially when they're trying to find a place to just get some experience. So kind of on the heels of that, you know, the interview process and going into like the actual, Work like doing the work for these first couple of jobs.

I know you said best [00:16:00] by Canada and maybe some of the ones after that, looking back, you know, hindsight, like 2020 now, like, what was it like for you? Like, you know, you were in this, you were doing a few different kind of jobs. I think you mentioned you were doing video editing, doing the motion. And I think you said videography as well,

Kelly Kurtz: uh, working, working on live action teams and doing it, but not necessarily like it didn't resonate with me.

This is one of those that I was curious than when I started, I was like, this is a whole other art, but I think I just want to stick with the animation. But yes, I did experiment with it a little bit

EM: cool. All right. So at what point in your first jobs, did you, were you able to find your voice in your role?

Like, like, I guess, in motion design and animation, you know, I know you're experimenting with all those other, uh, different skill sets. But yeah, how did you kind of find, find your voice in the, uh, in the motion side of things? I

Kelly Kurtz: feel like it definitely took me a couple of years, but like, it's like your voice is always there, but it's whether you choose to trust your voice or not.[00:17:00]

And the first couple of jobs that I had, I was the first motion designer in the company, instead of them hiring out a freelancer. And I often was working with video editing teams, so they would definitely look to me for animation, After Effects, that sort of realm. And so I could feel like an expert fairly immediately, even though I still felt very much like a rookie.

So that, I think, helped. Kind of helped in the beginning, but then developing my own voice and adding my own sort of touch to things that was a really tough one with especially like a company like Best Buy, who has like a very specific brand, but they don't necessarily have like a motion brand voice, which is some kind of language that really has only come into the industry the last couple of years.

So I found more of my voice coming out. With my own personal projects, and I think like when I started to pivot more into illustration and then definitely when I started to niche down, [00:18:00] that's when I started to trust my own voice.

EM: Yeah, so like when you're finding your voice in illustration, like what was it?

What was it in illustration that clicked for you?

Kelly Kurtz: I think it was like trying to find the styles that resonated with me and then honing in on it and diving a bit deeper with it. And I think I knew right off the bat that the vector style was never going to work. My style, but when I was going to school, I thought it was phenomenal.

I couldn't believe that people would just like whip this stuff up. I had a, a classmate that could do these vector illustrations so fast. And I was like, how do you do this? And it was amazing. But like when everything is new, you don't know what resonates, but the more that you work with it. And the more you listen to it, I think that's when it starts to emerge.

But like it takes years and it's, it's like an ongoing process. It's never like a destination that you arrive at. And like my style is still evolving and continuing, but once I started working on more collaborative projects, then I started being asked [00:19:00] to come speak on panels, like, When the pandemic had hit and clubhouse was like a really big thing I'd asked to come speak on a on a panel for like how to find your own voice and speaking about like women in the industry and various things like that.

So I think just like connecting with other people and hearing what sort of resonates with them and does that kind of align with me and then sort of just having those conversations helped I think me to find what aligned with me and then the niching down side of things is where things really started.

To come out. So I, I had quite a bit of space, like most people over the pandemic to kind of do some thinking. And that's when I like really dove deep into what kind of clients I want to work with and what kind of work I really want to do. And, but I mean, that was like five, six years after I graduated from school.

And I think I had this like unrealistic expectation when I graduated from school that. In like two or three years time, I'll be like a super [00:20:00] established motion designer when really like it takes forever. It

EM: takes

Kelly Kurtz: a long time. And even then, like, I mean, I'm, I'm well settled into my career, but like. If someone would have told me, it'll take you eight years before you feel this, I would have been like, I'm out.

I quit. That is way too much time for me. So I think just like way more patience with myself would have, I think, helped to curb my expectations because So many people would come into, say, just using Vancouver Film School as an example with so many different skills. Like, some came in as like, they were a graphic designer for five years and then they did this program versus myself.

I came from a totally different career and had dabbled in various different, like, art mediums, but certainly not, like, dove really deep into any of them. So everything was new for me. So of course it was going to take me longer. And one [00:21:00] person's journey, I can't compare their timeline to mine. And I think that's what I was subconsciously doing.

And then being disappointed with where I was and only realizing that 20, 20 hindsight, that's kind of a little bit of like eating humble pie later, like, Oh, that was not realistic.

EM: I mean, you hit on so many good points there, especially with the, you know, someone telling you, or like if you, someone has to tell you it was going to take eight years to feel settled in, uh, in this industry and this skill set that you have, it's like, Oh fuck, no, I'm not going to do this.

Let's wait too long. Why do that when I can learn software development and get a high paying job within two or three years, I'm using air quotes there because. That's like a dream that people sell. But still eight years is a long time. So, you know, I like your, um, this timeline that you talked about that you went on from like, you know, you started in these early jobs and you kind of settled into illustration and motion design and animation.

And then we kind of like jumped all the way to like, you know, you [00:22:00] being on panels, you niching down. I want to like focus on that little like middle area. Like how do like when you went from Beginning a couple of jobs to like niching down, like what happened? What was it that kind of helped you like niche down in that area?

Cause I feel like students coming out of, I mean, it could be students or just like, you know, newer artists coming into this industry. I think some of them might be a little too quick to try to niche down. Now there are those unicorns out there, but I feel like being a generalist. Uh, out the like out the gate is like really helpful because you have to experiment so much stuff and so many different skill sets and tools, but there's obviously a case for niching down at some point, because, you know, especially if you're a freelancer, that's how you make more money, you niche down because people want that solution.

So, yeah, so long winded way of like asking you that question is like, what, what kind of help do you like niche down after, you know, finding your way in a motion design?

Kelly Kurtz: Oh, man, I feel [00:23:00] like this could be like a whole podcast in and of itself. This like, to try to like summarize it and keep it somewhat short, I think I definitely, I agree with your process of like when you first get out of school, like broaden, like keep things broad, keep it wide, keep it narrow enough that like you're interested in a bunch of things.

But in general, there's going to be some things that resonate with you. Like illustration always resonated with me, but I didn't know how to reach out to the industry to get that kind of work. And pre pen, it's funny because like the pandemic did some really interesting things. It, it made some things tougher and it, it actually opened up a lot more things for our industry.

And so I'm grateful for that. There wasn't very many opportunities for remote work. And if I were younger in the industry and I was willing to move to be able to work at a motion studio or a studio that had multiple motion designers, I think that might have helped me. I've taken my [00:24:00] career in a different direction because I was really adamant on staying where I was that's I think part of why I took those like video editing and motion design jobs because it gave me a little bit of it but I could still stay put where I was.

So I think being realistic with If you're willing to move or if you're not willing to move will affect the trajectory of your career and you got to give yourself a little bit of grace on that. But in terms of like how I kind of found my voice in between these like really beginner jobs to then. Being like very established niche down in the freelance world.

I know I had seen a couple of like collaboration projects in the Panimation. At the time it was just a Facebook group, we didn't even have the Slack groups. This was years ago. And Heather Crank had Posted this collaboration project called the F bomb animation. And it was just like, um, various, various uses of the word fuck, which was [00:25:00] fun.

And I like, I was like, sure, I'll hop on it. And it was like a space theme and she had a color palette. And so we got to work together on that. And then. I found out later that, like, she lives in Bend, Oregon, and she helps out a lot with the Bend Design Conference. And then she'd reached out to the folks that she collaborated with, wondering if we wanted to do an animation for the back wall at the design conference.

And I was like, yeah, sure, I wouldn't mind doing that. So I had done some stuff, sent it over, and then I ended up Um, deciding to buy a ticket and I flew down to Bend to go meet this person and also to like take part in the design conference and that kind of like solidified a bit of our, our network relationship.

And so that's where relationships start to come in. And once I got to know Heather and she got to know me. Then she started doing a lot more public speaking and she was wanting to host these panels and after we had been like chatting back and forth she was, she had invited me on a panel so it was like [00:26:00] it was one of those like classic, you kind of hop on one small thing, and then you get to know each other, and then it kind of turns into something slightly bigger but you still continue to get to know each other.

And it's your very classic, like, relationship building, networking type of thing that helped me to try to think of, like, what is it that I have to offer? And what is it that I'm most passionate about? And then when it came to kind of, like, niching down into Like the outdoor brands that I have right now. I always knew that that was where I wanted to go, but I didn't know how to do it.

And so I think I had tried maybe four or five different ways, kind of failing at it with the different verbiage. And part of that was going through various like coaching programs, trying to figure out like, How do I get the wording right? How do I appeal to my target audience? How do I learn where my target audience hangs out?

How do I like all those big questions? And that took me probably a good two years over the pandemic with just a lot more space [00:27:00] and a little bit of mentorship and guidance and a bit of like, time kind of thinking on my own. And so when people are like, Oh, I want to learn how to niche down. It's definitely not an instant process.

And it's a constantly evolving one. And I'm super stoked with where I've gotten to now, but it definitely was not, it wasn't even like a six month process. It was like two years. Minimum two years for me anyway, so I hope that kind of answers what you're looking for

EM: totally does because you know, I, I don't think it's like a, Oh, Hey Kelly, give me a manual on how to niche down and then, um, you know, let me sell it on like New York times, you know, bestseller list, but I, I think like the kind of path that you laid out for us, it branches off into all these other parts of, I think the industry, a career, you know, Like how to just like have a successful career, whether you're full time or freelance, I think it's just as a creative artist.

And I don't know, maybe it could be other industries too, but [00:28:00] we're focusing on motion and the creative industry. So when you're in this process of niching down, I know you're mentioning it took about, you know, two years in that process, you were building all these relationships to, um, you know, you were talking, you went down to Oregon from, uh, Squamish.

I don't know, or Vancouver. I don't know exactly that distance, but still you put in some kind of commitment to flying down to meet a stranger. And then you started talking to more people. And I feel like it's at least from an outsider's perspective, it seems like a lot of that contributed to, Oh, hey, you're getting probably real time feedback from people like, Oh, hey, like maybe on your work or maybe on your style or something.

You know, I obviously don't want to speak for you, but would you say that like talking to all these people kind of getting this like real time feedback, would you say that helped you kind of like narrow down into that niche and like kind of find your way into something you're a bit more passionate about and driven by?

Kelly Kurtz: It's a tough one because I feel like the word motion designer, like when somebody asks you what you do [00:29:00] and you're like, Oh, I'm a motion designer. Often the instant reaction is, Oh my God, that's so cool. Followed by.

EM: What is it?

Kelly Kurtz: Uh, what's, what's motion design like a very sheepish, like that sounds really cool, but I don't actually know what that is or the assumption that it is graphic design.

And so I've almost stopped using the word I'm a motion designer and I've started talking about what I do in a different way. And this comes from, uh, some of Joanna Galvoa's work. material on how to talk about what you do. And I recently had, I, I chose a different hairdresser recently, and I was chatting with him and he's been in business for like two years, but he still feels like a bit of a rookie when it comes to.

His business. And I remember kind of like listening to some of Joanna's podcasts and being like, okay, I'm going to see if I can like approach this differently. And I didn't use the word motion design. And I listened to like what some of his struggles were. He's like, Oh, I just wish that I could find [00:30:00] someone who's really good at storytelling.

And I'm just like, okay, carry on. Like keep going. And eventually I told him like, Oh, I've got some new services up on my page. And I. I do animation and graphic design combined to create explainer videos, but they're not like your typical explainer video that you think of like a cartoon. It's branded to your brand, and he's like, I need this.

I absolutely need this rather than me saying I'm a motion designer. So I know that was like slightly off topic, but I feel like that's been more impactful in me choosing what I do and who I do it for, which basically is what your niche is. Like, what do you do and who do you serve versus using the word motion design for outdoor brands?

Like motion design for outdoor brands sounds very specific, but is that something that's going to stick in people's minds when they're. Out at a network event or they're having a drink with colleagues or they're talking to their neighbor and their [00:31:00] neighbor is like, Oh, their neighbor is never going to say, I need a motion designer because I'm an outdoor brand.

Like they're not going to say that. They'll be like, Oh, I totally need someone to help me promote X product. Do you know of anyone? And so I think the way that we think of it and the way that we speak about it can really impact how we choose to niche the design conference that I went to and I met Heather.

I think that really opened up. Like just talking with a lot of different people and and actually funny enough recently in the last like six months There was a woman that I had met there. She was a uxui designer and she was based out of portland We sat at the same table for a particular activity and we had exchanged business cards and followed each other on linkedin and I didn't follow up and nurture that um relationship beyond like shortly after the conference But she had remembered that I did motion design You And she was working with a particular agency [00:32:00] that they were looking for more motion designers and five years later she sends me an email and was like, Hey, are you still doing this?

I've got this agency. They've been really lovely to work with and they're looking for more motion designers. Would you like me to do an intro? And I'm like, I would love that. Thank you so much. So I think that's more what I started to get out of like those kinds of conferences. But I in some ways I wish that I had followed up more with some of the contacts that I had made.

I was just, I think, fortunate that five years later she seemed to have remembered me and managed to like figure out how to contact me, which was amazing. But I think because I didn't know quite what my niche was aside from I'm a motion designer and you're kind of like. a specialist in your field anyway, that that seems to stand out enough amongst a bunch of various designers, architects, industrial designers, graphic designers, brand designers, yada, yada, that it seems to stand out enough.

But for [00:33:00] me, it just wasn't quite deep enough. And I think that's part of like why I wanted to sort of meld the two worlds and also like Coming from my previous background of being outside a lot, I knew that I wanted to try to bring those two together, I just didn't know how to do it. And whenever I would try to do it, it's like it just wouldn't resonate with people.

It's like, oh, well you do outsourced things. Okay, cool. And then it would like, the conversation would end there. So I think it was a lot of like, trying and failing, trying and failing, trying and failing over years to try to figure out what language to use to get people to understand what I did and who I did it for.

And how that could help them in their business.

EM: Wow. Okay. That was awesome because I feel like you highlighted a common problem that almost probably every motion designer can or has experienced and can relate to. It's kind of going back to what you said is, Hey, I'm a motion designer. It's like, Oh, that's so cool.

What the fuck is that? Like, what do you do? Like, [00:34:00] it's like, Oh, and you know, their wheels are probably in their head, trying to turn it like spinning, trying to figure it out. And. You know, motion design in the way that we know it is still such a new medium, right? It's such a new skill set in the grand scheme of other skill sets in the world and, you know, human civilization.

But when you say something like a graphic designer, people get that, right? They understand like, Oh, You've designed graphics and, you know, that can obviously be as nuanced as you want to go. But since we are a lot newer than that, I think it does take a bit more effort or maybe a bit more tact to figure out how to explain it to someone the way you're approaching it, like with this, um, hairdresser that you were talking about, it's like, if you say motion design, they're going to be like, what?

I don't need that. They might think it's, you know, something totally different or VFX or what could be anything, but you saying, Oh, I can. I do this thing to serve a as a solution to your business problem, or I can help you like storytelling all the things that [00:35:00] feed in a motion design. I think you're doing yourself a real service there because people are like, Oh, I can speak that language.

Uh, where's like that woman that you met at the conference who, uh, who I guess she had worked with an agency that you mentioned. It's like they probably speak the language of motion design. So it's like, I think it just depends. It seems like being able to do both, being able to speak to like both kinds of, or different kinds of people, uh, to try and like sell your services or sell yourself in a way.

I think that's what, that's what it seems like it's really helped you. Like in these different scenarios, and I really want to dive into some of the business stuff here in a minute. Kind of wanted to like sum that up this whole section up real quick with a question. Uh, I know we were talking about this right before the call, but you know, so what would you have kind of told your younger motion self?

It could be as general or as specific as you want to get here, but what would you tell them about, Coming into the industry and kind of figuring out, Hey, do I become a generalist [00:36:00] or do I niche down like from an early, uh, I'm only using age here in the terms of like years of experience in the industry, but like, yeah, how would you, uh, what would you have told your younger self about that?

Kelly Kurtz: I would say give yourself a lot more grace and space. To explore than maybe what you think whatever timeline you have in your head double it If you think that you're going to take like a year To try to like get into the industry and figure out what you like and don't like Double it give yourself two if you want to give yourself two give yourself four.

It takes more time To eliminate the things that don't align with you than what you originally think. And that's a good thing. That's okay to give yourself that amount of time. And there's going to be lots of pressure to niche down. And while niching down is absolutely key and important later, to know for certain what works for you and what doesn't work for you is also really key, especially if you're going to go into [00:37:00] freelance.

Because you need to really pick and choose your clients and pick and choose your projects because that will make or break your business. If you work on a project that you said yes to because you didn't have work for a little bit of time. They didn't pay you nearly as much as maybe the project was worth or what you were worth.

You go into that project. And you end up, kind of, I don't know, I've gone into these kind of projects and I've sort of resented working on this project and being like, well, frig, they're not paying me very much, and like, I'm not really enjoying this process, and they're asking a lot, and, like, the expectations weren't front loaded very well, and, and, and, and.

And you don't end up showing up as your best creative self. And at the end of the day, the client is probably having a very similar experience. And you're likely not going to get a recommendation from this person. You're likely not going to get a testimonial at the end. And [00:38:00] so this is a very short term solution that is only worth the time that it starts and the time that the project ends versus if you have gone through and you've eliminated all the things that don't work for you and a majority of the things that do work for you, maybe not all, but to give yourself a chance.

A picture of what aligns at what doesn't align, then you can choose those projects. And when they come along and you say yes to it and you enjoy working with the people you enjoy the topic you're enjoying a majority of what that project has to offer. They're paying you the wage or the project price or however you're pricing it.

That works for you, then it comes back to you tenfold. The client enjoys the end product. They end up recommending you. They end up using word of mouth, and you end up getting more work. So in some ways, if you rush into this process, and then you continually figure out what is not working for you, then you're, [00:39:00] you're literally only capping your business every time you're exploring this.

So if you can use the beginning part of your career, especially if you're working in house, to figure this stuff out by the time that you choose, and I just say this because this is my career path, like I've always wanted to be freelance, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be freelance.

EM: Sure.

Kelly Kurtz: But if you do end up wanting to go into freelance, you have to have just a really good picture of that because that's how you grow your business and have a sustainable business.

EM: Wow. Okay. This is gold. And as you were saying all of this, you know, all these like really good points. I think you kind of made a perfect metaphor to like, uh, the filmmaking process.

It's like you gather all of your footage over time. You gather all of your assets and you know, as you can put as many rough edits as you want together, but the real end result doesn't come together until you edit. Yeah. Right. So you edit down. So I like what that's [00:40:00] how it played in my head. So maybe some people could relate if, um, if they came from like a, some kind of editing background as well.

But I like that too. Because like, you have to gather these years of experience. Um, you have to gather the space and the time that you're talking about and being able to make a, I think it's being able to make those decisions, make those choices. Because at the end of the day, like you mentioned, like if you're just showing up to a gig, because Like you needed the money, you haven't had work in a while, you know, whatever reason, but you don't show up as your best self.

Like, sure, you could blame it on the project, the client, whatever, but you've made that choice in the end. So if you're able to afford yourself space, time, uh, to either improve the craft, improve your network, improve X, Y, and Z. Then I feel like you're going to set yourself up really well to edit your life.

This sounds so fucking preachy, but you're going to edit your life in a way that you're able to choose what kind of jobs you take. Definitely which ones you don't want to take. And I guess maybe this plays more into the [00:41:00] freelance side of things, but I think the same could be said for full time, too.

Kelly Kurtz: Absolutely. Oh, yeah. And like, if you It's one of those things that I think I've heard that over and over and again. And I thought of it more of like a quality of life thing and like a project enjoyment. But when someone had put it to me that way that by taking those projects on, it actually hurts your business opposed to it helps grow your business.

I was like, it was like getting hit in the forehead with a fry pan. It was like, how could I have not seen that? It just seems so obvious suddenly as to why. Taking those projects doesn't actually help me in the long term, and it just resonated so deep with me. So anyway, that was like, I think, a nugget of gold that I've really only learned in the last year, seven years in, I might add.

EM: Well, hey, like, now that you're sharing this gold with us and the audience, uh, maybe someone will be able to find it one year in, and they'll be able to have, and That goal to share with [00:42:00] others. So you're doing a service for us all here. So kind of segwaying from there. You know, I think we wrapped up that section like really well, I think kind of diving a lot into the freelance world.

Because, you know, you said you wanted to, you always knew you wanted to stay freelance and be freelance. Let's we can, I think we have a ton of material to dive into. Just all these different nuances. The first one I want to target is, um, self marketing, you know, and what the different problems and challenges that can come into play when it, you know, when these emerging motion designers are first getting into the industry, I can't count how many times I've seen new artists coming out of school or just into the industry, trying to label themselves as creative directors or art directors with.

Without really understanding what that means per se, or maybe they're trying to market themselves too heavily by saying they can do everything. It's like, Oh, I've, I can do premiere pro after effects and design illustrator, but it's [00:43:00] like, Oh, but I'm a 3d guy or a 3d person, 3d artists. And I'm like, okay, cool.

Like you just padded your resume like crazy. Awesome. But so all of that to say, maybe that's more of a soapbox I was on for a second, but Uh, from your perspective, like what are some of these self marketing problems that you think these emerging motion designers have a hard time solving when they first start out?

Kelly Kurtz: I think a lot of it is like they're trying to sell their skills, but they're not trying to solve a problem. And, and even if you're working in house, like, yes, they're going to ask you, like, what skills you have, because they're trying to fill a skill gap, but they're also still trying to see how that can help their clients.

So even if it's like an advertising agency that maybe is hiring a motion designer for the first time, maybe they've got a video editor working on their team, but they don't have a motion designer. Like, they're still looking for a problem to be solved. And. Selling your skills is in my opinion of a very like [00:44:00] egocentric viewpoint.

And I say that with a caveat that we've all done it and, and we don't necessarily know what the market is and who our target audience is like in the beginning. So I say that like very cautiously. So instead of selling your skills. Try to think of what problems you're solving or trying to solve and how that can actually help.

So looking for things in the world, like when you're on social media and you're noticing the different motion design that's coming up in different ads, like how are they using it? And. You know what resonates with you and what areas are you really interested in? So do you really like social ads? Do you really like doing broadcasts?

I know lots of people that absolutely love broadcast design. That's like their favorite part and in those areas You'll be able to sell yourself a lot better because then people can see themselves in your work, whereas they can't see themselves in your skills. So, that's definitely, I think, one of the big ones, but it also is one, to be fair, it's a tough one to [00:45:00] figure out, and you kind of do have to go in and flail a little bit.

But just like, keeping that in mind. And a few narratives that I've heard over the years that have not been super helpful. Uh, your work should sell itself. That is a lie. It does not, it does not sell itself.

EM: Yeah. Please tell us more. I would love to hear more about that.

Kelly Kurtz: So I remember when I was graduating that they were helping us, like the school was helping us put together a portfolio and that we shouldn't have to sell ourselves.

And I was like, Okay, cool. So we just like put a website up and then people come to us. Like, how does this work?

EM: Oh yeah. The phone will be ringing off the hook. Like once you hit that publish button, you're, uh, you're hired for the rest of forever.

Kelly Kurtz: Right.

EM: Yeah.

Kelly Kurtz: Crickets, nothing like getting nothing. And like, even if you try to go in and like SEO optimize the language that you're using is very dependent [00:46:00] on what part of the industry you're going to.

So like. I'm going to use two sort of sectors as how I kind of see motion design fitting into the world. One being with studios and agencies and the other with direct to client. And a portfolio should consist of, like, your about, your contact, and your work. And that's very true for studios and agencies because that's typically all they need.

They need to see you're real, they need to know your background, and maybe a couple of case studies to understand how you think. Like, that's very common. Kind of classic, classic portfolio type of format. But if you're wanting to work direct to client, if you're eventually wanting to get into freelance and Not necessarily work directly with studios and you want to be a little bit more In charge of your own projects or if you eventually want to own a studio or become an agency owner Then understanding the direct to client feels like a whole other ball of wax and this has been like my entire last year So I started reaching out to direct to client [00:47:00] trying to use my old portfolio with like the classic Work about and contact and I got a very similar response when I would tell people.

Oh, I'm a motion designer They're like, oh cool. Like what's that? And when I was sending my portfolio out, they're like your work is beautiful Uh, I don't know if I need a motion designer. Like we haven't really got a budget for it right now But um, we'll let you know. And that was like a very typical response.

And it wasn't until I started trying to figure out how can I appeal direct to client a lot more. And really they need to see themselves in my work. They need to understand examples of it. And that is something that I find is a really big challenge. marketing problem that motion designers who want to work direct to, to client have not solved.

And like, if you go to post on LinkedIn, often our posts end up appealing to other motion designers. So we've got lots of motion designers following us. But [00:48:00] it's because we're not speaking the language and solving the problem direct to the client. Like, what is it that the client needs? Well, I want more sales.

I want to impact the world in a certain way. I want to, like, their deepest desires are totally different than, like, I can work in After Effects. Like, those are two different worlds. And I think the bulk of, Marketing has to do with like the deep rooted stuff that you have to get like really nerdy on. I'm not gonna lie

EM: I think no, I think you're spot on like you have to get nerdy with it because I I love hearing your perspective on on all of this because I you know, i'm like the other I guess column in that where I freelance pretty much just for studios and agencies.

And I love it. Like for me, that is my cup of tea, my well oiled machine. Whereas like when I hear other people like yourself who prefer the direct to client route, it's always fascinating to hear because you do have to become a nerd about [00:49:00] marketing, about business development, problem solving for other people and speaking a different language, essentially.

How did you kind of embark on this journey to learn this, this whole different Like a side of the industry, this business development marketing, because I could imagine that there's artists out there who want to go freelance at some point. And they, maybe they don't know the language yet for marketing or they don't know what to Google or they don't know where to start maybe.

Um, so yeah, I would love to hear a bit more on like how you found that was like a great fit for you.

Kelly Kurtz: Yeah, that's fair. Part of it is like kind of going back to that like process of elimination. And some studios that I've worked with have been fantastic. If there's a producer who's really communicative, but also sets really healthy boundaries with their clients of like, this is what we can do.

And this is a timeline that we can, we're happy to like do these revisions, but this will also impact the cost and the timeline that I'm super happy to work with those studios and agencies. I've also had the opposite end of the spectrum [00:50:00] where. Various producers will do absolutely everything. They are the yes man for the client, which doesn't necessarily work for the motion designer who often is at the end of the pipeline.

And because I've had such opposite experiences, it just made me want to be able to be in control a little bit more. And I ended up working with a few different directed clients. Ironically, they were, they were, I've never landed a direct to client myself yet, but I have worked with them based on like, I worked with someone in house, they moved on to a different company, and they then needed a motion designer, so it was like a referral situation where I got to work with, um, those folks, and I've very much enjoyed.

Being able to front load the information that they need. Like this is the timeline that we're going to work on. And like, when I send out a proposal, the proposal has a full work back schedule and it's got deadlines of like when they need to get me information, when I'm going to get them information and it's all completely [00:51:00] laid out.

And then I'm basically posing to them, like, are you okay with this timeline? Because this is what is required if we're going to hit the deadline that you're asking of me. So then they understand the process a lot better. And I don't know what goes on behind the scenes for a lot of studios and agencies, but I assume that something like that goes on for those that are, like, setting those really healthy boundaries and managing expectations.

But I think I just got tired of working with the opposite of that. And then being like the cleanup mop up crew, someone's like lack of management and it just made me want to be in the driver's seat. So because of that, I was kind of on a bit of a mission to be like, well, how the heck do I land a direct client?

And how do I keep them? And that journey has been kind of the whole last year trying to figure out how do I speak their language and how do I appeal to them? And part of that is falling on your face and getting back up again [00:52:00] and falling on your face and getting back up. And like, it's that whole like resilience part.

And maybe that comes from a lot of my outdoor background, but like, I have a lot of resilience from various different aspects of my life. Whether it's been through like hard mountain experiences or it's been through like various personal health experiences I just feel like I have that resilience and I've always had like an entrepreneurship brain and Part of that is like I'm neurodiverse.

We've got ADHD. I'm on the autism spectrum and I just don't fit in to A mold. And so I kind of have to create my own molds. And I love figuring this stuff out. And once I finally do, I'm like, Oh my God, that is so satisfying. But I know not everybody is built that way. And I know some people are like, I just want to do the art.

And that's totally fine. And I think it's just important to figure out like what it is that works for you, but know that there's multiple different [00:53:00] paths. And if someone had laid it out for me that way years ago, I think. Maybe my learning curve wouldn't have been so steep, but that's I think where a lot of that comes from is like some really good experiences and really shit experiences.

And then just that like deep seated obsession to figure it out.

EM: Wow. I feel like you're speaking to my soul right now because I think, uh, I mean, I think you have to have an obsession with this stuff. Like if you, if you really want to succeed, I guess I'll see. Success can be subjective or contextual, but I think if you really want to succeed, you have to be obsessive in a way.

Like I said, even if you want to say, if you want to perform at the highest level and go work at say, Buck or giant, or whatever, like you have to obsess over specific parts of your. Your skill set, your relationship building, your craft, maybe you're obviously yourself marketing and, you know, your approach here [00:54:00] on the, like direct to client and, uh, business development side.

I mean, it's fascinating. It's fascinating to watch because, you know, this part, this skill set of like business development, marketing that you've been talking about, it's not just reserved for people in those industries or positions, right? Like creatives can do it too. And you can do it well, and it's really cool to see you approach it like confidently.

And also I can tell, like, if you don't know something, you're going to figure out like, okay, what is this? Who do I have to ask to figure out what, how to figure out this problem and all that to say, it's like, it's just really cool to watch seeing how you've talked about how you've grown from like this, um, you know, emerging motion designer coming out, not really sure, like what you really wanted to do and then niching down into.

This part of like freelance and this part of your creative career, it's really cool to watch and I know I get a bit long winded there, but I was looking at our previous or [00:55:00] I guess pre interview questionnaire type of conversation and I saw you mentioned these terms Red Ocean and Blue Ocean. I've never, I've never heard of this before.

And yeah, I guess keeping in mind of time as well, like I w I think we would really benefit from like, like a high level, like description of what that is.

Kelly Kurtz: So there's this book called blue ocean strategy and it is a marketing strategy of supply and demand. And it's trying to create tension in between the two of that, where You create your own dynamic, you create your own products, you create your own service and you then put it out in the world rather than being at the mercy of waiting for people to approach you.

And the red ocean is basically like fighting amongst all of the sharks and the bloody water. And to me, that's what LinkedIn feels like right now because of the industry. And I, I, I just feel so shitty when I get on there. I'm just like, I see a post that's [00:56:00] like, Hey, looking for a motion designer, like freelance motion designers.

And I see 800 comments.

EM: Oh, I hate it so much. Oh God. It drives me insane.

Kelly Kurtz: That is a red ocean. If I put my name down in there, like. Am I really accomplishing anything? I mean, somebody might see it and they might click on my stuff, but they'll probably close it and I'm, I'm not going to be memorable in there.

And so to me, creating my own strategy and my own blue ocean is trying to get out of that red sea, uh, Of just like this cock fighting pit that like I don't want to I don't want to be a part of it And it's funny. I recently watched a video I was on chris doe's channel and I was watching a video I'll have to send you the link.

I can't remember the name of it but um, he was talking about supply and demand and creating your own supply and demand and He used the example of a particular I think it was like a [00:57:00] music festival, and they only host this festival one time a year, and they only open up tickets one time a year for half an hour, and you have to put your name on a list to even like, get the opportunity to purchase a ticket, and so they create so much tension, and they don't even release the lineup of the artists who are going to be playing, but because it is so renowned, and they create so much tension in the process, the people are chomping at the bit to buy these tickets.

That's wild. It's super wild. And so basically he, he was trying to take that model and be like, how do you apply that to a creative design industry? And I just like the whole interview is mind blowing. And I just find that really fascinating on how you do that. And there aren't very many freelancers that add, say for example, services on their page.

And I've now added services on it. It's got my pricing. It's a little bit deeper in so that if you're really interested, you will eventually come across the pricing of it. But [00:58:00] it also helps me to filter out the clients that don't align. So then I don't spend a 15, 20 minutes chatting with somebody about their project.

And then we started talking about budget and their budget is just not going to be appropriate for what they're looking for, or it's just not appropriate for the kind of client that I want to work with, like in this moment in time. And so it's trying to create those filters out early on. So then like create your own blue ocean strategy.

So that's in a nutshell, basically what it is. Don't compete with everyone else. Create your own market.

EM: Yeah. Everyone go and compete with Kelly. She needs a competition. Okay. Um, yeah. Thank you so much for, uh, sharing that insight into the, uh, the red ocean and creating your own blue ocean, like visual there.

Cause I think it's so apparent to, uh, today's industry of, especially when these newer artists are coming into the industry and trying to, you know, decipher which. Hey, do I [00:59:00] do I go to LinkedIn route and just try to, you know, apply mindlessly or do I, or do I do something different? Do I try to find this blue ocean?

Um, and kind of thinking about that too. And maybe narrowing the sound to a more specific question for you. You Kelly is, you know, this is a, I always like to ask people this because I think it's fun to look back and cringe. But when you, you know, when you first started freelancing, what did you fuck up at?

Like, what did you really screw up? Yeah. That you kind of had to learn a hard lesson on.

Kelly Kurtz: Oh my God, I fucked up so many times. Like we could do an entire podcast on it. Um, but like the very first freelance gig that I had ever landed. I definitely messed up, but I didn't realize that I was doing it at the time.

And quite honestly, like freelancing is not for the faint of heart. You're going to get rejected. And at some point it's going to feel personal. And all that I have to say about freelance is that it will Build resilience in you or you will also decide that it's not for you and that's [01:00:00] totally fine. But it requires resilience.

It requires you to be able to figure out how to get back up after you've fallen on your face and go again. So I was approached by a small company when I was graduating and they liked my work and they wanted to work with me as a freelancer. I think they were like, They were only in business for like maybe two or three years.

They were like a younger, younger studio. And they also kind of sweetened the deal by saying, we're going to provide you with some mentorship. And I was like, Oh, that sounds great. But I didn't know how to ask the specifics of what that would look like in terms of like the time commitment or like I knew freelance was just like, Well, you're not really on salary and we give you work when we have it.

But I think subconsciously I had expected, maybe I would have a project like once every month or two months or something, I didn't expect to like. Not have anything for a really long time. And so having some unchecked expectations was definitely like the start of where things went [01:01:00] wrong. And the owner of the company was super kind, very patient.

And I got on this project and I clearly did not have animation skills. I came out with some really good design skills, and I had some base, like, After Effects, but like, actually learning how to properly animate, I did not have. And he was super nice, he walked me through almost the entire project, which he basically had to do himself, and he was giving me a tutorial on how he was doing it, like, that is not The position you want to be in so that in and of itself like didn't feel great.

But yeah, I think I just wish that I had more of the communication skills to ask like what his expectations would have been. And like how much time you wanted to mentor me or like did you want to mentor me just on the project or was this like an open ended offer that I could contact him anytime I kind of needed advice or like what kind of advice was he hoping.

To send my way. And so I didn't ask any of these questions. So again, more unchecked, um, [01:02:00] expectations. And then, because I had these, like, unconscious Ideas in my head of what it would be like, then it suddenly wasn't meeting my expectations. And instead of like being professional in my emails, I look back at my emails and I was apparently super passive aggressive.

I was like, Hey, haven't heard from you in a while.

You'd never say that. Not like, you know, like you never give pressure. To people, you just, like, leave things open ended, like, no response needed. But I didn't know how it worked. And I didn't know who to ask as to, like, how this would work, or how I would respond. And I didn't know how to ask. And so, needless to say, like, he didn't respond very much.

He basically had to, like, do the whole project for me. I didn't know how to animate properly. And I wasn't offered another contract, and the door was silently closed. So, like, that was my first project out of school, and I failed so bad at it. Uh, I have definitely learned how to communicate better. Um, have definitely learned some [01:03:00] animation skills.

Uh, thank you, School of Motion.

EM: Yep, yep, yep.

Kelly Kurtz: But, um, yeah, it, it's one of those things that, like, people will always say. Just ask questions, ask a lot of questions when you're first starting. But I felt like I was in that, like, have you heard of the four competencies? I don't know if this like rings a bell.

There's like,

EM: not by the name, maybe by the principle of, yeah. So like

Kelly Kurtz: when you're first starting out, you're like unconsciously incompetent. You don't know what you don't know. And that was literally the category I was in. So I didn't know what questions to ask. And then. As you move up, you're conscious of the things that you're incompetent.

And then as you move up, like you're aware that you're missing some things. And then as you move up, like the third tier is that you're conscious of the competencies, the things that you're good at. And then eventually like the mastery level is that you're. You're doing these things unconsciously. So like at this point, there's probably lots of like keyboard shortcuts or when [01:04:00] you hop on a client call, like it's very conversational because you know what to ask them.

You know what information that they've given you and you know what information they're missing. Maybe you write some notes. But it just becomes very unconscious later on. And with this particular project, I was in the low level. And it was a lot of eating humble pie in the beginning. So, I don't know how to quite fully get out of that, but I'm sure there's like, some information out there somewhere of like, how to ask different questions when you're first starting out as a freelancer.

Or maybe that's something I should develop. I think that's something I should work on. I

EM: mean, this sounds like a, this could be a Kelly project because especially with like the way I guess with the Kelly, uh, I guess like brush strokes, paint strokes or whatever on that, that for, uh, what was it? The four quadrant or the four competencies

Kelly Kurtz: for

EM: competencies.

Um, that's so true. Like whenever you're describing it, I was like following in my own visual. [01:05:00] Or like a nostalgic timeline of everywhere. Okay, I fucked up here. Improved a little bit here. And then eventually I now know the keyboard shortcut for undo and save, but obviously more than that, but it's, I like how you sectioned it off like that too.

So, you know, obviously since then you've. You know, improved communication skills. You're not just asking people, Hey, I haven't heard from you in a while. Um, you found different ways to, you know, improve on that side of things. What are some like clear and, uh, I guess like actionable, I guess, methods or approaches that these new freelancers could.

Use, I guess, maybe just freelancers like these newer artists, um, can put into practice when they're, say, trying to develop relationships. They're trying to, you know, maybe try to get a full time job or, uh, or anything in that nature.

Kelly Kurtz: I think for me, like until something is booked and I have a deposit in my bank account, I'm not actually booked.

That's, that's a really big one. Um, [01:06:00] that I think, and I'm going to like do a quick sidebar. I have had projects like there was one project, I think in like 2018 that I had landed. It was the largest one I'd ever landed as a freelancer. It was a 16, 000 project that I was super stoked about. And we got into the project a couple of weeks in the company closed that branch that I was working with.

And luckily, because I had the deposit, I had seven and a half grand in my bank account, and they didn't ask for it back. So I kept it, but I'd only done about 1, 200 worth of work based on like the time that I had put in.

EM: Sure. But

Kelly Kurtz: it was one of those things that like, I'd stopped looking for work because I had landed this project.

And I didn't end up, of course, getting paid the full 16 grand because it, you know, project got pulled and whatever else. And they, they did actually overpay me. But even like getting booked, having started the project. Having had money in my bank account, that still can [01:07:00] change. And I think that was a really good.

Uh, thing to experience for me, because it's, um, you just never know.

EM: So what are some, uh, like practical and actionable, I guess, approaches or methods that, uh, these emerging motion designers can, can implement to, like, better their chances of either getting hired or building these relationships in the industry?

Kelly Kurtz: I think a couple of things, like when you constantly hear. That your network is your lifeline. And I think until you really start developing like deeper relationships with people and meeting up with them on a consistent basis, like once a month or once every two months, or even just like keeping on chat with them, that is something that If you think of like a car mechanic, like people usually don't Google car mechanics.

They'll ask other people, they'll ask for referrals. And that's very much the [01:08:00] same. Like when I've had too much work and I'm wanting to hire on freelancers, I just asked my network and I asked the people that I trust. Cause I want to know what their experience is with working with them. And so that's like, The referral side of things is a strategy that you're constantly told a different narrative that you, you shouldn't lean into it because it's unpredictable.

What if you actually leaned into it? What if you used it to your advantage and you constantly kept in touch with people? That will pay out in spades. Um, a couple other things, consistent outreach equals consistent results. If you don't reach out, unless you've got a lot of, like, a lot of work through returning clients and you're a really established, uh, freelancer, that can, that can cause those, like, peaks and valleys and troughs in your freelance work.

EM: I think those are, that is just pure gold Kelly. And this is a lot of the stuff that I tell people who are either, you know, new [01:09:00] to the industry or new to freelance in general, the outreach thing is so crucial because I spoken about it a lot on this podcast, but just to reiterate. If you, of course, like the, like you mentioned, the constant outreach, uh, yields constant results.

Not only are you, you know, trying to get work and trying to keep yourself stable and consistent, keep on practicing the craft, but you're also trying to build a network of people that you can like go to whenever like times get hard. Like, you know, Covid the pandemic happened a lot of layoffs have happened the past couple of years and like I was even part of like a furlough like that wave of like for being furloughed and eventually leaving a previous company.

But if I didn't have a network of people that I already trusted, not even to say, hey, people get me work, but people just to talk to when times got tough, then I mean. I feel like I, I wouldn't be where I am today, probably making this podcast, I might still be trying to find work. And that would take me away from doing things that I'm really passionate about, like [01:10:00] having these conversations with people like yourself.

So I guess like all that to say is like, Kelly, what you're speaking is again, like pure gold. And On top of like, you know, being employed, having work, having money in the bank, which is very important. Also, just there's the social aspect of it to of belonging to an industry that is very welcoming and also playing the part of someone who also welcomes other people and helping build relationships with other people is.

Uh, at least in my eyes, it's very important and that's what makes this industry so special to me and to a lot of people who are in it. Uh,

Kelly Kurtz: totally agree.

EM: Awesome. Cool. Well, Kelly, thank you so much for hanging out with us today. This has been, um, an invaluable conversation. So much great. Uh, content so much.

Great. Just talking points. I can't wait to distill this down for everyone to hear. So before we head out, we'd love for you to share with us and the audience. How can [01:11:00] people see your work? How can they get in touch with you?

Kelly Kurtz: Oh, thank you so much, Kyle, for this conversation. I always have enjoyed our chats, and I'm so, again, I'm so stoked that you've been, um, initiating this podcast, and I think it's going to be really valuable, and I can't wait to listen to the other episodes.

And, um, yeah, folks can find me, uh, on my website at kellykurtz. design. I am on Instagram. At Kelly Kurtz design. I'm also on LinkedIn, Vimeo and dribble. And you can find all those links on my website in the footer.

EM: Awesome. Thank you so much, Kelly. Of course, we'll be sure to link all of that, but I definitely recommend reach out to Kelly.

She's awesome. This conversation we've had today is only a small sample of the kind of conversations you can have with her. So Kelly, thanks again. And I'm looking forward to chatting with you next time.

Kelly Kurtz: Awesome. Thanks. Now.

EM: Thank you for listening to our conversation with Kelly Kurtz. If you'd like to connect with her further, I highly recommend you check out her portfolio in the show notes and [01:12:00] reach out to her from there.

I hope you were able to take something valuable away from our conversation today and relate to it in a way that can help you on your journey to becoming an everyday motion designer. Thank you for being a fan of the show and please subscribe to the show wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can follow the podcast on Instagram at everydaymotion.

podcast. Don't hesitate to reach out with any questions, feedback, or any other way that you'd like to support the show. Today's music is brought to you by the artist Cosmonkey, and the song is titled Feel the Night. Also, I'd love to give a big shout out to Matthew Johnston for mixing today's episode. And another big shout out to a fellow motion designer, Maddie Alexander, for editing the episode as well.

Thank you both so much. The show would not be possible without your help. Thank you once again for tuning in, and we look forward to sharing our next conversation with you. Now let's kick it to the [01:13:00] music.