Everyday Motion: A podcast for the emerging motion designer

EM: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Everyday Motion Podcast, where we guide the emerging motion designer on their way to becoming an everyday motion designer. My name is Kyle Harter, and I'll be your host as I talk with these everyday motion designers. In today's episode, I'm speaking with editorial motion designer, Patrick Gallagher.

In today's episode, we discussed how to hold your own at an agency when you're first starting out, how to find your North star when seeking a direction to go in, focusing on personal work, and so much more. Now let's not waste any more time and dive into the conversation with Patrick Gallagher.

Patrick, thank you so much for joining the show. How are you doing today?

Patrick Gallagher: I'm good, Kyle. How are you?

EM: Good, man. I'm good. Uh, yeah, thanks for hanging out with us. You know, You and I have known each other since I think the fall of like 2022 when I went freelance.

Patrick Gallagher: Yeah.

EM: Yeah. And we've had, we've had a lot of really good conversation, so I'm really happy to have you on the show so we can really [00:01:00] dive into a lot of really good stuff because you have an interesting backstory and an even more even interesting current story.

So. I kind of want an audience to hear a little bit more about your background so they can kind of get to know you a little bit.

Patrick Gallagher: So my background is I studied like mechanical engineering at college in Scotland. I'm Scottish by the way. Um, although I don't sound it, so I guess to give a little bit more context.

When I was a kid, I grew up a little bit in, in Louisiana, in New Orleans. So, um, I don't really have a Scottish accent, but I I'm Scottish, went to college in Scotland, studied mechanical engineering, graduated in 2018. I'd always been very like creative and always made videos and that kind of thing. So in 2018, I was like, I don't want to do engineering stuff.

I want to do something creative, which brought me into like advertising. That was like the thing that I thought I should do. And so I, I, at first I applied for account exec [00:02:00] jobs, but I didn't get any. And I could like, literally I could use premiere. I could use after effects. I was definitely like a creative, but I just didn't have like the, I guess, confidence probably because I'd done engineering at college.

I felt like. Oh, I'll do something more like admin y, but I eventually got an internship at an ad agency in their design department. And I was doing a lot of graphic design and then like a bit of motion design on the side. And yeah, I did that for a few years. And then right before COVID, I quit that, went freelance, started doing, you know, like just freelance motion design, no graphic design.

Yeah. And then, so I did freelance for a few years. And then sort of in the middle of that period, I started like permalancing with CNN. And so that was like a really long booking. That was like a year and a half. While all this was going on, my girlfriend at the time who I met at college in Scotland, she's American.

She was studying here in New York. So we got engaged. And [00:03:00] then in 2023, I moved here to New York city. And I've been here ever since.

EM: Yeah. No, thanks for the background, because I think it helps a lot of people to kind of like orient themselves to a little bit of that motion designer journey and how it's obviously not linear for a lot of people, I'll say, um, so kind of wanting to like backtrack a little bit to that beginning part of you starting out in mechanical engineering and then, you know, finding yourself into the creative field for a lot of people, you know, I mean, I'll say from my own personal experience, I started out doing business management or something at university, and then I switched to film midway through.

Without really knowing what, uh, you know, what to expect. The stakes were pretty low, because I was still in university. But you graduated with an engineering degree in mechanical engineering. What was that transition like for you as you switch, as you moved from this very, like, you know, analytical, math based, engineering focused [00:04:00] field going into more creative?

Patrick Gallagher: Yeah, I, I, it's a really interesting thing, because the way college works in the UK is You don't like. You go into your course being like, okay, I'm doing engineering and that's it. Like, you're not like choosing a major or anything. So, uh, also if in Scotland, you can, the first degree you do, um, the, the government will pay for it, which is great.

Obviously it's amazing. So yeah, so like, even though I chose engineering just cause a lot of my friends were choosing it, but like, I definitely knew I wasn't an engineer, but at the same time, I was getting like essentially a free degree. So I finished it. But like, during that time, I was trying to figure things out.

And I was very much like a video guy. I'd made like tons of YouTube videos with my friends, but by the time I went to college, and then in college, I was like making a lot of videos for fun, like I did a [00:05:00] short film with my friend Millie, um, this was in college and we got like sponsored by the British Film Institute.

And we got like a grant and we filmed this, um, movie called Balloon, which is like five or six minutes long in Manchester. And we had like extras and it was pretty crazy thing. And it was like a lot of fun, but like all of that. That like kind of gives you a picture as to like the kind of person I am. Um, so I was definitely like a video person through and through.

And, um, towards the end of college, I started doing like videography. So I, I did videos for this like very small fitness company. Uh, and basically it was just like a friend of a friend needed videos and I was charging 50 pounds per video. And I was spending like probably 20 hours on each video. And I was just like, You know, I didn't, I didn't really know what I was doing, but I was like, I think I want to be a freelancer, you know, like, um, so I was [00:06:00] doing that.

Yeah. I was just trying to figure it out. And, and I remember going to the engineering schools, like careers person. And I was like, I think I want to go into advertising. And I've read online that when people go into advertising, they like, You know, they'll, they'll, they won't just send a CV. They'll do like some crazy, like, uh, you know, they'll do like a stunt to get into an ad agency and like, how do I do that?

And is that true? And like, he was like, dude, I honestly have no idea. And I remember like, literally from my engineering class, I'm definitely the only one that went into anything like, like what I'm doing now. Um, but I, I kind of just like finished school, uh, and, I was trying to, you know, like figure everything out.

And I was, I put together a website of just like random videos I'd made. And then I like did a bunch of these like day things, like, you know, go to an ad agency for a day, like their open house kind of thing. [00:07:00] And, um, I remember they were like really eye opening and I could, I, I got like a sense of what, like a creative, you You know, studio looked like, and I was like, this is amazing.

Um, and so like, while I was trying to figure all this out, I was basically just like unemployed living at home. Um, I just graduated, uh, my brother, he lived in London at the time and he was working, uh, he was, he was working in like finance and stuff, but he was in a running club and. He was running one day in the running club and the person next to him worked at this agency called mother in London.

Um, and he told this person and mother about me and they were like, Oh, we can get them down for like a week. Uh, so I did that. And like, I think like if, if, if anyone listening has heard of mother, they're like an amazing ad agency. They're like a, an independent agency, but they're, they're very big and they're very like [00:08:00] creative.

They make some of the best work. Probably one of my favorite ad agencies. And basically I went down and spent a week at mother. And like, I remember when I got to the building, it's just like this facade. Like, I honestly like, look it up on Google maps. Like, it's like this like facade that like, you wouldn't even know there was anything there and then you go inside and it's almost like, it's like Willy Wonka's chocolate factory.

It's like the craziest place with all sorts of like crazy stuff going on. Like I was there for a week and like. We made, like, um, a football strip to send to David Beckham, and it was like, to do with this, like, LGBTQ, like, uh, initiative, and, like, we were, we were, like, sewing together stuff to make this, like, rainbow soccer strip to send to David Beckham, and we were just doing, like, all this crazy stuff, and I couldn't believe, like, people were getting paid to do it.

So I definitely felt like I belonged there. And so I just sent [00:09:00] out tons and tons of emails to loads of ad agencies and the ad agency that I wound up getting an internship at basically how I got in touch with them is my aunt knew the CEO from when they were in college together. Yeah, like they literally were friends when they were like 18 or whatever and like just remained friends and honestly I think I don't know.

It wasn't like out the gate. My aunt was just like oh I have you know Like I have this friend. She was like, you know I think she saw me trying to figure out and she was like, you know I do know someone and, and so like, yeah, I got this week work experience and in the, during that week, they like asked me if I knew after effects and I did.

And, and the design department there was all very like heavily graphic design based. So they were like, Oh, you know, you know, after effects, cause these guys were all like print guys, right. [00:10:00] And, and I was like, yeah, sure. Yeah. I know it a little bit and I made something for them, um, like a really quick, like little logo reveal.

And, uh, they really liked it. So they, they like, they were like, Oh, would you like to stay for like, You know, maybe a couple of months or something. So, uh, yeah. And that's like basically how I got started. But I remember like feeling like the whole time I was in engineering, like I didn't really fit in. And then when I was like in a studio for the first time and there was like.

All the sort of like the decks on the pin boards and there was like people like doing mock ups and like all this kind of stuff is, you know, I was just like, this is like, definitely where I should be.

EM: Wow. No, that that's quite a journey. And I feel like you and I might have like similar, uh, I guess like maybe like similar feelings or moments kind of like that when something just like clicks because, you know, you were in this, you know, degree that, you know, you probably didn't really love [00:11:00] being in, but maybe you saw like a stable future down the road or something in engineering, but to have like that, like spark kind of like ignited in you based on your interest, you already kind of had in like making videos and stuff like that.

Was it like that moment at the agency? When you were a mother, when you were like, Oh, I can make an income off this. I can have a living doing it. Like, was that kind of the moment for you? Or was it maybe a different one? Yeah.

Patrick Gallagher: Yeah, absolutely. I, I, I think it was just like how crazy mother was. And like, I remember, I don't know if they still do ads for like KFC and innocent smoothies, but I remember like seeing on someone's computer, like the KFC logo and they were like making some like ad or something.

And I remember thinking like, That looks like it belongs on TV. And I just was like, that's so crazy that like it's getting made right in front of me. I was a, like a runner there for that week. And basically it just means you do like odd jobs. And it was the CEO's wife's birthday, [00:12:00] uh, and mothers, there's, I don't know how many people there is like 300 or something.

Maybe.

EM: That's huge.

Patrick Gallagher: Yeah. It's, it's a big agency. Yeah. Yeah. And. Yeah, it was the CEO's wife's birthday and somehow the job landed on me to go buy his wife's flowers for her birthday. So like they were like Okay, go to this flower shop. Here's like 500 pounds get the craziest bouquet of flowers And, and they were so like, I don't know, just the fact that that was just like a normal thing to do.

And like the David Beckham thing, and they had these like Russian dolls, like, you know, the ones that go inside each other.

EM: Yeah. Like the nesting dolls, right?

Patrick Gallagher: Yeah. They had those in the office and basically. Uh, they'd, they'd made them with a bunch of like gay icons, like they had Elton John and I can't remember who else they had, but they'd made, you know, an Elton John that goes inside this person, which goes inside this person and they made, uh, two [00:13:00] copies and one of Set of dolls just lived in the office and they were really big.

They were like almost life size and the other set they'd sent to Russia, like to the Kremlin. And I was just like, that is so crazy. And like to see this huge office doing all this crazy work. And then like, they're also doing that, like sort of, I guess, fun stuff just to see all living and breathing was like the moment for me, especially, especially like considering the outside, which just like.

It's almost like a secret, like the outside of it, you wouldn't know there was an ad agency there. It's like very, very secret. And then you go inside and it's just like this whole crazy experience.

EM: That's pretty wild because especially having that moment for it to click when it's like right in front of you like the what's it called like the the sauce or the secret to the sauce is like right there in front of you essentially and because maybe maybe there's like that predisposition of you know watching madman or something you imagine that however these ads or [00:14:00] however marketing or animation is made it's made in these like silos of like these big studios or these places that aren't accessible to you.

Maybe like everyday people like us, but that's, that's really the majority of it. It's all made in these places that normal people work at, but to have that kind of like wild experience of, uh, like that eccentric of a ad agency sending like shit to the Kremlin is pretty insane. First exposure. Totally.

Patrick Gallagher: Totally. And like when, Like when I was at college, you know, that was such a, like, just like what you said, it was such a rare thing. Like I never met, I like, don't think I ever met anyone that really worked in advertising or anything creative before, before really mother. And, um, and I remember I was shooting like a student film in a bar.

And the bartender who kind of like, I think we went in when the bar was like closed and so the bartender like opened it, let us in and we [00:15:00] were filming this film and he was saying like, Oh, I want it to do some creative career, but like he said, the closest I ever got was being, um, the, the sound guy on a porn film.

And he was like, honestly, you guys should kind of give it up. Just, you know, how do your little student film. But, and I met like this guy, I remember him saying it to me and like, I just remember feeling like. This is such like a, a pipe dream, you know, um, and then you go to mother and it's just like completely normal.

There's like hundreds of people all doing the, all doing like this incredibly creative stuff. And, and yeah, it totally turned the lights on for me.

EM: So Patrick, a lot of really cool backstory there with your experience at mother. And I know you went from there to, uh, you know, another agency for like, you said your first like real internship.

And in our pre interview questions, I remember asking you, you know, what challenges were you facing and acclimating to an agency culture? And you mentioned these two things that I would love some more clarity on. So you mentioned the terms 4D chess [00:16:00] and client mindset. And, you know, client mindset might be, you know, fairly straightforward, but for a newcomer like yourself into the industry, what was your experience with those, like say with 4D chess and a client mindset?

In relation to your career then and maybe how it's affected you today.

Patrick Gallagher: After mother and I started this internship at this ad agency, I like had a very classic set up and you know, it had an account department and it had creative directors and I had copywriter art director duos and had producers. And it was just like.

As classic an ad agency set up as you could get. It had like this really well known copywriter at the top. He, he like founded the agency and he was sort of like, I don't know, like a Don Draper kind of guy and everyone sort of answered to him set up. I think this like helps with the answer to the 40 chess and the client mindset.

But like, it was just like, you know, long hours, which is totally [00:17:00] fine by me, but it was very like, I don't know, like, just like bonkers, you know, like doing pitches, like last second and you know, the late nights and I like my work like ripped up in front of me, told my ideas were totally shit, like all sorts of stuff.

No, and it was kind of like a hazing period and I learned a lot and, and there was really, really good designers there and, you know, really talented people and, um, Yeah. Some of the designers that worked there, they told me kind of about this thing, like the 4d chess. It's like when you want to get an idea through a company, it's a lot different to when you're just working by yourself.

When you're working for a company, it's kind of like you're playing chess against someone. Like you have your move, they have their move, but you're doing it in 4d. And basically there's a lot of, it's like, you're playing a bunch of games at the same time. Uh, and And like, you kind of have to [00:18:00] sell an idea in, but like through all these like weird ways.

Right. So like if we were working on a rebrand, you don't like just go present the rebrand on the Friday. Like. You, you have the rebrand open on your computer, then you go to lunch and then the creative director might walk past your desk, but you're not there, but he sees, he sees what you're working on. So it's kind of like in his mind.

So like then on Friday, when you present it, it's not a surprise. That's like, you know, maybe one Avenue, another Avenue might be like getting the head of accounts who you're really good buddies with. To buy into your idea and so like basically by the time that Friday big meeting rolls around you already have like a lot of buy in from various people.

That's like what, you know, one aspect of the 4D chess. There's another, you know, like Maybe the idea you really want to do is pretty out there. So you kind of start with a sort of vanilla version [00:19:00] of what you really want to do. There's a lot of that kind of thing. I remember working on like ads that were going to go live.

And, uh, I remember thinking like, there's no way the client's actually going to do this. And like, uh, this seems so out of character for them. And I don't even know like what I'm really doing. And, uh, I remember one of the design directors saying to me, like, It isn't about the ad, it's about like just getting to the next meeting, you know, like the clients ask for something and we know that this ad specifically probably won't actually go out, but it's really what they, they want for the next meeting.

And it's, it's sort of like the, the lily pad that gets us onto the next lily pad. And then, you know, 10 lily pads away is the actual ad, but you have to do like a little bit of this give and take. And then the other part of it, the client mindset is. Is I remember working on stuff. Uh, I worked on an ad where we were working on a fridge, like a, you [00:20:00] know, we were working for Bosch and there was a fridge full of food that, you know, we were like, I don't know, showing how well food keeps in a fridge.

And, uh, we had this shot, this product shot of the fridge open with like all the food in the fridge and there was tons of food in there. Like, like there was like fish and there was grapes and there was this, there was And I remember like On the shoot. We were like, you know, nudging a grape here, you know, like moving like a, a bottle of milk slightly to the left.

And I remember thinking this stuff is so my new, like it really doesn't matter. But that's when you got to think about the client mindset and these things don't matter, but they're paying like, you know, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars to blast out a message. Um, and for a lot of. People, it's like the marketing team at the client's big, big, like thing, you know, it's their big project for the quarter or whatever.[00:21:00]

Everything rests on them. Right. And it's, it's sort of like their big thing and they want to make it perfect. And so they like kind of give this like feedback that doesn't really matter, but it's not because. They are really thinking about what the ad is genuinely saying at the end of it. It's more like, I want to like show my boss, maybe the, the chief marketing officer, I want to show my boss that like, there was a round of feedback and we did something about it.

And it came out better than it was, but, but they don't want to like rock the boat. They just want to make something that the chief marketing officer likes. And usually it's some like 60 year old white dude, you know, that's, that's sort of being at the company forever. And like, uh, you kind of have to think in terms of that.

And I think that's why a lot of ads wind up sort of like bland or vanilla. And it's, it's, it's honestly, because like. A lot of people [00:22:00] don't really want to lose their jobs. It doesn't really matter how well the ad does or doesn't do. It's more about just getting through this process from A to B without that much friction.

And I think that's how you wind up with like. This sort of like negligible feedback, obviously some feedback's important. A lot of feedback isn't, and you kind of have to like see things from the client's mindset and like embrace that. Like, I think a really, um, famous analogy of this is like, The government contracting an engineering firm to make a nuclear power plant.

And then they go on into the meeting and the, the power plant itself is very complicated. And so they kind of focus their feedback on, on the car part of the power plant. Cause it's something that's like, it's easy to, feedback on and then it's like, okay, we had a feedback session and they're changing this and we're moving forward.

But, um, it would, it would kind of rock the boat too much to be like, Hey, that nuclear reactor is [00:23:00] like the wrong type or whatever. So yeah, like when you work in the advertising world, you got to like, see things from, from, I guess like the, the politics side or. Or what does the client really value?

EM: Yeah, that was really great insight into, I think, just how ad agencies work.

And I think when you're newer to the industry, like you were, because you had this, you know, first person experience, you know, that you, I feel like as a newer artist, you don't really realize what's going on behind the scenes, right? Especially if you're like, just in production, or maybe even post production, you're like, Oh, I'm just making, I'm just animating this logo, this type, whatever, right.

Or this transition, or you don't see everything that happened before that. And also stuff that's like three or four levels above your pay grade. Cause say that feedback they have about the, you know, if there's those grapes that have to move, no one cares about the grapes. They care about being able to have feedback and say that, Oh, we, we, the client, we, you know, [00:24:00] Maybe, I don't know if it's Apple or whoever, we nudged this just a little bit, just so we had a say in it and that is a common thing that I think, uh, at least I know myself when I first came out, didn't realize that I always thought when the client had feedback that they were attacking me personally, but really it's because, you know, they have a higher boss to answer to, uh, they have a certain job to get done and if they don't say they had feedback and get their sign off on it, Then, you know, it's maybe it's a little bit of ego boosting, you know, D all the above.

I think you had a really good point there. And also the other part too, of, you know, getting to that next meeting, I think I've never thought about it that way. I've always thought about it as, you know, Hey, they buy into the creative, get a little feedback and then you move on to the next phase. I never thought about it as, Oh, let's just get to this next meeting and do enough for that.

We're usually coming in, you know, as motion designers, right? I guess for the most part, if you're only [00:25:00] animating or even, I guess, animating and maybe even designing, you're coming in towards the end of that part of the funnel, right? Like you're coming into like the very last, like maybe 20 percent of the bigger campaign of.

Everything that's gone on before you. So I'm sure that had to have helped you now, right? Like being able to have that experience of seeing everything that comes before the actual like fun part of making things move. Did that have like a important impact on your career and like shaping how you view like the process?

Patrick Gallagher: Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean, like I, when I first went freelance, I was very like, Of the mindset. Like I want someone to tell me like, this is, this is a brief, this is the deliverables and this is how long you got to kind of have to do it. And here's some style frames and blah, blah, blah. Like I wanted that.

And I think from advertising. And like being in the agency and seeing like the buildup to sort of work. And then, you know, the whole process, I [00:26:00] realized that I guess like business is kind of a dance, right? And like, right now I'm working with the BBC on something and they emailed me and they didn't really specify exactly what they wanted.

And I think a couple of years ago, that would have sent me to the hills like running, but I kind of have learned to embrace that a lot of the times. In, in this kind of like thinking it's a dance, like it's really just about getting on that call and you can use that call to like, Establish more of what they want, or even inform what you think that they should do, which is, you know, it's kind of a better situation than just being sort of handed a brief.

You can like help build that brief in your own sort of vision. It's important for like, sort of emerging motion designers to don't be shy when that sort of. Uncertainties there like you can embrace it and like you can jump on a call if there [00:27:00] isn't like a whole lot of clarity around stuff you can help you can totally steer that ship but if you jump on the call and if it doesn't feel right you can always sort of back out like just just because you're taking a call doesn't mean you're totally committed or not.

And it doesn't mean that you're adhering to like this, this like brief that isn't fully defined. It just means you're, you're jumping on the call. You're sort of figuring it out. You're kind of testing each other out and, and then, you know, you're maybe going your separate ways or maybe you're. Forming an idea together.

And I think a lot of the work that I personally have done has, has kind of worked like that, where you, you maybe jump on a call and you do like a little bit of work together and it's kind of like, they're, they're seeing how you work, you know, you're seeing how they work and. And it kind of naturally turns into like, uh, a more defined project.

EM: Wow. I love how you paint that picture of, you know, you being [00:28:00] able or you being the artist, being able to be, to serve a role of helping the client and figuring out what they want. Cause I think maybe a stereotype or a stereotypical situation could be like, Oh, they come and, you know, we don't know what we want, but you're the creative you.

You animate it that would, you know, previously send me to the hills like you were talking about, because I'm going to waste my time. They probably don't have a budget or those are the things I would tell myself. But it's interesting hearing you say that, because I think you are presenting like an opportunity that you probably you, the artist probably didn't think about before is sure.

You may think of yourself as like the hired gun to Like just carry this creative to the finish line, but there's another opportunity and probably a more lucrative opportunity as well to. You know, offer consultancy, offer any kind of insight to solidify yourself as like an expert and the position of authority, essentially.

[00:29:00] And I also like to think too, like you don't have to be a seasoned motion designer, artist, creative, whatever to do that. But obviously more experience, you get better at it. So with that in mind, like Patrick, you know, say you were talking to a younger Patrick, you know, maybe they're freelancing or maybe Hey, maybe they're even at a studio trying to sell their idea or work with maybe a small business to help them with, I don't know, some kind of social campaign or something like that.

What were, what are like some questions you think, you know, if they get on a call, they meet them in person or something, what are some questions these newer artists could be asking, say, these direct to client business owners about, yeah, how to help them like craft this creative?

Patrick Gallagher: I mean, I think, honestly, there's various different things to it, like, so The, the first thing I'd look at, obviously is like the way that they're talking to me and like, if they're saying, Hey, we saw this studio Ghibli [00:30:00] movie and we want that blah, blah, blah, five minutes long.

And we have a week, obviously that's the kind of instant turnoffs. People saying that they want like a quick, um, you know, a quick job. It'll take you like, you know, it'll take you like an hour. That's an instant turnoff people saying that they want. Someone who's really good for some reason that's a ter like when people say they want like a top tier motion designer For some reason that usually means that they're not serious

EM: I agree like if I hear that I feel like they're trying to stroke my ego a little bit But they don't I don't know I get I can't really put it into words

Patrick Gallagher: I feel like they want the maximum value for the least amount of money You know, I think that's where that comes from.

Whereas if you've worked with freelancers before, you're not like in that mindset of scarcity. You're like, okay, you know, we'll pay you for like a week to just come up with the ideas. And we'll pay you for like a week to just design stuff. But if you're like, we need a top tier, we need the best in the game.

You're kind of like. We have a [00:31:00] day and we don't know what we're doing. Um, and we need, this is a Hail Mary kind of thing. So yeah, I'd, I'd look at that, that kind of stuff. Um, and I would say in terms of like guiding the creative, the most important thing to do is to obviously under promise. over deliver. So like, you know, like when you estimate how long something will take, double it and then add a little bit, you know, cause uh, you don't want to be in the position where you're, you've promised the world and you, and you can't deliver it.

I'd say those things are important, but I think ultimately it's down to chemistry, uh, with the client. And I, I like to be like sort of checking in. At least every day. I like to have a very close relationship with the client. And I feel like if they're, if they're not in that space, they just see me as sort of like a, uh, a commodity provider, you know, like just, just, uh, you know, a vending machine of motion design that I'm not interested.

Also, if someone's sort of like you jump on a [00:32:00] call and there's sort of this presumption that you're going to take the job, that's also a little bit of a turn off to like, You know, it's not like Starbucks, you know, it's not like you can go in and I'm definitely going to sell you a coffee. It's like, we're, we're sort of filling this out.

And like, if it all clicks, let's go for it.

EM: You hit on a really good point there. Cause that, you know, I'm speaking from the perspective of when I was first getting into the industry of, you know, automatically assuming that if I get on a call with someone, I have to take the job. Cause I. Engaged in this 30 minute, hour long video call.

So in my mind that read like contract, even though I never signed a contract and I got paid like shit for the job. What are some ways that like maybe these new artists could develop some confidence in that area and realize, like you said, that they don't have to take the job, you know, cause I'm sure some are, some are hungry, right?

They want to get that work. They want to maybe get a paycheck at some portfolio work.

Patrick Gallagher: I think when you work in the industry for long enough, you realize that like [00:33:00] A good 50 60 percent of calls that you have or potential jobs that you might have I usually wind up just dying somehow. Um, so like I don't know I think it just makes you less attached to any call like i'll jump on a call We can talk about this and I know that there's a 50 chance.

You'll just like The project will die on its own or you'll, you'll, you'll maybe decide to do it without animation or whatever. I think when you get into that mindset, you're just like less attached to like any one potential client. Um, also I would say like with experience comes confidence, right? But I think the underlying ideas that I now I'm confident to communicate, I.

I would still have had those ideas when I was just starting out. So I think it's really important like to recognize that the more experience you have, a lot of the time it's like your confidence grows, but the ideas are still the same. Like, [00:34:00] I think it can't be like sort of understated with experience comes just the confidence to say what you were thinking all along.

So like when you're starting out, it can be hard to kind of like, to say what you feel. And to have the confidence to jump on a call and try and steer the direction of the brief, but it's totally valid to do that. And you know, when I was at that agency, I would, I would give my opinion, but I'd always like phrase it like a question.

I'd be like, or I, or I, or I'd say with like a little caveat, like, I think this blue's nice, but I also think it sucks. You know, whereas, whereas now I'm just like, okay, this is my opinion. Yeah. When you jump on a call, there's not like. Any pressure to take the job, if you like, just voice your opinion and steer the project, it's valid, you know, even if you've not got that much experience, like your opinions, your opinion, whether you're an intern or a creative director, it's not right or wrong.

EM: Yeah, I think you had a, you hit a really good point there [00:35:00] that I think a lot of people struggle with in the beginning is that when they voiced their opinion, they think, or they, I guess maybe they could tend to think, oh, if I have to say like, oh, this circle on the screen should be blue, that's my opinion.

And that obviously, I think it's all about how you word it, like your tone, like with you mentioning, like phrasing it as a question. I think that's probably a more proactive way to go about it because you're not only voicing your opinion, but you're also including everyone else in the conversation because it's not to say like, oh, your role as maybe entry level or intern or whatever doesn't matter.

But I think it shows that you're trying to include everyone else in a team like dynamic or atmosphere in the conversation. I feel like that adds a bit more to that gives you maybe a bit more, I don't know if it's like street cred or maybe just validity in your. Cause you're, you're not trying to go on it alone.

You're trying to include other people. I think you're right though. It's like, it's a dance. You kind of have to, whether you're in a [00:36:00] studio or whether you're, or like full time job or whether you're a freelancer, it's definitely a little dance you have to, uh, you got to balance.

Patrick Gallagher: Yeah. Yeah. When I worked at that agency in London, I mentioned the creative director.

He was very like, sort of, uh, he was the top dog and, and, and, and, and, and, And so people were very like, I mean, me included scared to voice their opinions, but the ones that did like this guy knew he was like, His, the kind of effect he could have on people. Um, and the, the sort of the intern that would come in and sort of voice their opinion to him, I think he really valued that.

And I think a lot of like, sort of senior people do value those that can just give their opinion because, you know, like, especially when you're senior, you can get a lot of yes, man. You know, that kind of thing of just, just, just trying to stroke the ego. And so I think when someone junior comes in and they can be like honest and forthright with their opinion, [00:37:00] senior figures really like value that they're like, okay, this person honestly just cares about the creative work and less about their career.

EM: Awesome. You know, thanks for that insight, Patrick, because I think that's. Incredible advice for like the newer artists as they're figuring out their way into navigating the dynamics of an agency when you're coming in, maybe a little bit more scared than that initial role and how to maybe kind of like, you know, level up that confidence as you gain more experience.

I think people take a lot away from that. Um, now kind of shifting the topic maybe a little bit more towards money now, and this is a topic I like to talk to a lot of people about because everyone has different experiences with and different relationships with it. Um, because, you know, professional can overlap with personal, especially when you're freelancing, you know, how is your relationship with, I guess, seeing the value of motion design?

How has that changed from when you first started out? You know, you were making videos for 50, spending 20 or 20 hours on just one, right? [00:38:00] Like, how, how have you kind of like come to understand the relationship of money in relation to motion design?

Patrick Gallagher: When I first worked at this internship, I was on 12 K, which sounds crazy low, like, and it is low, but, um, 12, 000 pounds.

Yeah. Uh, like per year equivalent, but they, they, they bumped it up when I was no longer an intern, but yeah, it's, it's, it's low. I think it's important to realize that UK salaries and US salaries, there's, there is a big difference. So 12k in the UK probably isn't as bad as it sounds to an American, but still very low.

Um, but I was like, I would have done that internship for free. You know, I, I like literally, like if they said to me, you got to do this for free, I would have totally done, done it. Um, and I think that's how a lot of people's mindset is at the beginning, especially, you know, like when I was making those videos for so cheap.

Like you just want, you know, this is your hobby. Probably you just want it so [00:39:00] badly. Like you'll do anything. And I think sort of like in that, in that sphere, like I look at a lot of my friends from back home and stuff, and I'm definitely the only One that's sort of done this little bit more risky career path.

It's important to acknowledge that, like how my upbringing affected things. Like I didn't grow up poor by any means. Like I grew up in a very, very like nice upper middle class sort of. Household where there was never like a pressure to earn money. So like when I was making 12 K, I was living on my brother's floor in London.

And at the same time, you know, my aunt, you know, she kind of helped me to get this job and like, it wasn't like I got like direct financial support from my parents, but like, I knew that there was a huge safety net and that like, you know, the CEO is not going to fire aunts. You know, her, her, her best friend's nephew.

And like, my brother's not going to kick me out of his [00:40:00] apartment. And I think it's important to acknowledge that, like, especially when you're starting out in this industry, you know, to be brutally honest, it isn't kind on the finances and, uh, and you find that like a lot of people who are in advertising grew up in a similar situation to me, I didn't receive direct financial support, but it's more like my mindset was like, I'll be fine.

You know, I wasn't like, where's my next meal going to come from? I think my attachment to money is probably like, you know, I was like willing to work for free. Um, and I think as, you know, as, as time went on, I got a few like, you know, bump, bump ups and pay. And when I left that agency, I was on 25 K. Which was still low, but you know, at the time I was like, you know, it was, you know, I'd moved out of my brother's apartment and I was paying my own rent and stuff, and I thought I was doing okay.

But when I went freelance, like I knew that the [00:41:00] opportunities were like a lot better. And I think in my first year of freelancing, uh, from 25K, I probably, I think I'm, I more than tripled that salary. I like value my work a lot more. I'm more picky about projects now, or like I won't take bad projects just for the paycheck.

As time's gone on, I absolutely value my work. My time more. And I think that it's something that a lot of creatives learn to do. Like, you know, we're, we're not in this to make money. We're in this to make good work. And I think that we can often like short sell ourselves just for like the opportunity to do that.

EM: Yeah. I think you hit. On a lot of really good points there to like first one that kind of comes to mind is like the relationship with money aspect and you know, I appreciate the transparency to because everyone grows up differently, right? And, um, you know, with you making that say that 12 K and then, you know, eventually getting up to 25, you know, [00:42:00] not, you know, you having that safety net probably helped a lot, but also you're still living on a Bye bye.

Pretty low salary. You know, you're, you have the salary to start, but it's still pretty low. And London's not cheap. Did you learn how to manage your money from an early age at that point to, you know, Hey, if I can manage my money at 12, 000 or 25, 000 pounds, then I could probably manage it at 75, 000 or more.

Patrick Gallagher: Honestly, like when you're in college and stuff, you just like barely like have. Any money anyway. So like be earning money was like a good start, I guess. And it's funny. Cause I was, maybe I was on like 25 or whatever, this ad agency. And at the same time, basically someone at the ad agency knew someone who worked for this huge real estate company and they needed these like.

Animated like LinkedIn posts and they're like, do you want to like work on them? And, you know, you can get a day rate and I was like, what's a day rate. And then they were like, Oh, you know, and they were, they were like solid. Like this, this sort of contact of mine at the [00:43:00] agency was like, you know, they, they wanted the best for me.

And they were like, you know, this is some like. Junior level stuff, but you know, you could get like 300 a day for doing this, these LinkedIn posts and doing them on the weekend. And, and, and, you know, that's how much you should charge. And I was like 300 a day. And so like, I basically that, that sort of 25 K was probably, you know, once I'd moved off my brother's floor and I was paying rent 25 K, you know, I was Barely breaking even probably, probably dipping into the, into the red a little bit if I was like going out too much.

So I was like, this freelance thing sounds great. And I, I was doing that on the weekends, these LinkedIn things. And, um, it was kind of like a little buffer and, and it kind of turned into like this situation where I was getting whatever X amount a month from the agency, and then maybe like half that amount.

In, in weekend freelance stuff, and I was just like, I'm working way less on the, on the weekend stuff and, uh, it's making up like a [00:44:00] decent proportion of my. Of my income. So, uh, I think that kind of thing like started to like get in my head about how freelancing could be a really good opportunity. And honestly, like hearing that I could make 300 a day was like, that blew my mind, frankly.

So those are the kind of winds of change that took me into the freelance world full time.

EM: Wow. Like, I know like when you first get that like validation or permission to like, Oh, I can make 300 a day. Like, what are you talking about? I'm making 25 K now. And then once you started doing the math of like, okay, if I make 300 a day times five days a week, times, you know, 50 working weeks a year, maybe less, um, you know, you start to realize the potential of how money actually works in a sense of like how much your earning potential could be, obviously you're probably not booked every single working day of the year, but I think it goes to show that I hit that moment when someone said.

Kind of opened your eyes up to this to a day rate and, you know, earning [00:45:00] potential that you really saw the financial benefit of being a freelancer. Um, you know, maybe I shouldn't limit it to just being a freelancer, although running your own business as a single solo person. Is a challenge in itself, but even if you're making like a really good salary at a studio, I think the same principles apply, like you still have to manage your money, right?

I remember you saying that you are a lot more selective about your projects now, and I'm sure that comes with a lot of experience of, you know, not having to rely so much on scarcity to, like, just take everything that comes your way. You know, how, what's your criteria now for picking a project, whether it's for the money, for the real relationship, or maybe a little bit of all three.

Patrick Gallagher: I think as time's gone on, I've become like way more targeted and like who I'm trying to work with and the kind of work I do. So like my first portfolio had like. Videography, graphic design and motion design and character animation. I had like everything. [00:46:00] Then maybe my, my, the next iteration of my portfolio had graphic design and motion design.

Then the next iteration had just motion design, but probably a lot of stuff. And I feel like as time's gone on, I've become way more focused. And I think it really came from a realization that like, it takes a long time to get good at something. So you might as well just. Make your to do list shorter. And then if you put in the same amount of effort, you can get, uh, really good at like one thing.

And, um, so I think that's really what I'm, I'm doing now. Like I, I'm primarily working with like media companies, like. CNN or BBC. And I like to work on sort of like short documentaries or, or YouTube videos that have like an animated sequence. And then like, when you do that makes you more valuable to the right people.

Right. And you're just one freelancer. So you just need to be booked by one person at a time, really. And when you have that sort of mindset, you're like, Oh, I don't, [00:47:00] there's not like, 2000 potential studios. I want to work with, there's like a hundred and a hundred is still more than enough to, to, to be fully booked all the time.

And, and those a hundred perfectly fit your skillset. So like your portfolio matches them to a T and the chances of you getting booked are like much, much higher. And, and like I say, you just need to be booked by one person at a time. I found it. It's like a, a much more like. Successful way to go about things.

I try and like target exactly who I want to work with, the kind of work I want to do. And if you looked at my site right now, you would, you would get a sense of the kind of work I want to do pretty quickly, but I'd say what's on my site is in reality, probably about 5 percent of all the work I've ever done, but it's the 5 percent that Represents who I am as a person.

So like the other 95 percent is sort of easy to put it on there, but I, I don't cause I just want to keep doing that 5%. I want [00:48:00] to do that kind of style of work. It's definitely like something that comes with time. It's almost like going to a buffet. You kind of have to try all the food before you know, what's your favorite.

And then once you know what your favorite is, you can just keep going there.

EM: You raise a really good point there, because, you know, that 95 or 90 percent of work that a lot of us either have done or get paid for on the daily is usually not representative of what we actually want to be doing, because, you know, living costs money.

And bills have to be paid. So, and I think it's also a good, I just want to make that point just for any of the newer artists listening is say, if you were to see a studio like buck, um, odd fellows, Hornet, whoever, you know, whatever's on their portfolio might look really amazing. And you think they only do this kind of amazing work that is probably maybe 10 percent of what they do.

They really only, they do the other 90% It's like corporate kind of work. Sometimes product overviews, very internal NDA type stuff [00:49:00] for probably the big tech giants, but you know, stuff that they're not going to put on a real, uh, so just kind of wanted to like highlight that and, you know, segueing back to like your portfolio.

Uh, and I think this will probably echo into your personal work too, is, uh, you know, you brand yourself as a freelance 2d editorial motion designer. I advertise myself as a freelance 2d motion designer, but you added that editorial in there

Patrick Gallagher: as time goes on. I like realize more about like personal branding is a lot to do with your identity and that makes sense.

Right. But like when I say identity, if you narrow into what that means, it's like, what makes you, you, you know, like what makes you one of one, the more you can find that out about yourself kind of the better. And it comes with time. Like you can't just do it like day one. of being a motion designer, but like when you're like one of one, you become so much more valuable.

You become valuable to less people, but to the people that matter, you [00:50:00] become super valuable. Maybe there's a hundred media brands in the world, like a hundred. Maybe people that need an editorial motion designer and there's thousands and thousands of motion designers out there, but people that specifically say editorial motion designer in their headline, there's, there's maybe only like, I don't know, 20 or 30 of us.

It means like. There's a better fit if you look at like artists like Travis Scott, right? He's not like I'm Travis Scott the musician or you know He's not like putting music notes on his album covers or he's not saying like I am a hip hop artist He's just like I am one of one. And I think the closer you can get to like being one of one, the more, the more valuable you become to the right person.

EM: Wow. Okay. First of all, I'm using that for the social, whenever I push stuff out, um, I've made a note of it. You make a really good point there as well. Cause you know, looking at your site and I guess [00:51:00] branding yourself as that editorial. Motion designer. Um, you know, it's a newer term, right? There's probably going to be, like you said, might be 2000 companies that might not really understand it.

But maybe if there's that select few, maybe a hundred or maybe even less, right? That that's probably the people you want to work with to be, to begin with, because, and Hey, maybe some people just need to learn the language down the line of, Oh, what exactly is an editorial motion designer? Cause if we like go back in time, right.

When people. If you say you're a designer now, that could mean anything. You could be a web designer, graphic designer, print designer, but I think motion design has gone through that too, where like, I think it started out being like animation motion graphics when it had that cool term and then, you know, motion design now.

And I like that you're narrowing it down even like further when it, when it kind of comes to that. Um, that mindset and, you know, trying to be one of one, what do you think are some steps that these newer artists can kind of take when they're first getting [00:52:00] into the industry to maybe start developing that?

Um, I guess that tastes or maybe that maybe it's not taste, but how do they kind of build up that? to, I guess, go that way. Cause like, I think like you've mentioned a few times already, it takes some experience to maybe fully get there, but I'm sure there's steps they could probably be taking now to get to that point.

Patrick Gallagher: The more like you identify what makes you, you, The less you'll become like sort of this vending machine of motion design where you can kind of order anything and not, you know, you're not like seen as a consultant. You're more seen as like a, just a, a service in terms of like figuring out your style and what, what clicks, I kind of call it like the North star.

And I just, I'm like, if I'm sailing my ship in this general direction, That's a great start. And you know, there's this North star up there and I think that's where I'm heading, but maybe like over time it will change and that's okay to kind of like [00:53:00] steer my ship and you don't think in terms of overnight, you think of it in like an iterative way of like, I just did a branding project.

I think I kind of like branding. Let me do another branding project. And then you're like, Oh yeah, I like it. And then maybe you do a few more and then you're like, uh, I think I, I seem to really like fashion brands. So I think I'm going to go down that route, but there's no harm in like maybe taking on a character animation job.

And then, and then if you click with that more, you can just kind of go that way. I'd say it's like a process of like iteratively figuring it out and trying to narrow it down, but don't think of it as like overnight. I have to become the high fashion branding motion designer guy. You don't have to do that.

Just realize it takes time and that you can pivot if you want to.

EM: Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense because when I, I know when I was first starting out and I've experienced this even in the past few years before going freelance is it's so easy to just be definitive [00:54:00] in what your identity is at that given moment and say, I have to do this forever, or it's like, oh, if I go to the gym one time at like 5 a.

m. I now have to go to the gym 5 a. m. every day, or I can only do that. So, and I think when you first start out, say, if you go working at a studio or an agency or wherever, and they're only doing, say, one kind of work, or you're only doing that thing, I think it would be kind of stifling, actually, to Just limit yourself just to that thing.

Cause like you said, you may find out that you like character animation, but you never actually tried it. So, and I don't think you have to be a freelancer or a, you know, whatever full time doesn't matter. I think kind of like you said, like figuring out what that North star is and not having to define it so quickly, um, you know, it can take shape over its career.

Like, you know, I think based on where you and I are at, like in our career, after, you know, Being in the industry for as long as we have our North star is probably going to change in the next five, 10 [00:55:00] years, you know, maybe even a year, who knows? So I think it's probably just probably it's important to kind of like how you're saying is just to remember that this, this process is, you know, Motion design, or maybe even bigger as a creative, it's not linear, it's kind of a little amorphous sometimes, but you can find some structure in the amorphous blob, but it's up to you to kind of mold it.

I love the potential of that.

Patrick Gallagher: And I just like add to that, like, if you're struggling to work out what your north star is, I would say pick five projects from anywhere, but five projects that you wish you'd made and put them like in a deck or a mood board or something and just limit yourself to five.

Because I think that limiting it to five helps you to really focus on what, what is that top five? And that's something that I did, and it helped me clarify where exactly I was going.

EM: Yeah, and five is achievable too. And, you know, thinking about that too, like in terms of like a, you know, this bite sized achievable goal just to figure out, You know, how [00:56:00] you feel about something I would love to kind of shift this topic before we wrap up about, you know, your personal work in the past year because, um, you know, I can provide a little bit of backstory here and that when you came to the U.

S. You know, and you got married, I know you weren't able to work because the work permit hadn't come in yet, so you had all this downtime, so I would love I think everyone would love to hear, you know, let's let's hear more about, like, this person work you've been on and would love to hear about the kind of audience that you've created for yourself, too.

Patrick Gallagher: Yeah. I mean, for anyone that doesn't know, you can like go on my Instagram. I've been making TikTok style videos. They're loosely based around companies and it's kind of like explainers, I guess, like what Vox would do, which I guess makes sense for the kind of client work. I do. I'm writing them. They're in a minute.

I did one on like why Disney world doesn't have mosquitoes. Um, I did one about this. This competition that Pepsi had that resulted in a bunch of people dying, just like [00:57:00] random stuff, but always sort of based around companies. And I've actually figured out a direction. I want to take it. That's a little bit more narrow.

It's going to be about what? Companies that disrupted an industry. Basically I had this time off and I just started making videos. And the most important thing is to always be doing personal work. The passion for personal work is it's everything to me. It's the reason that I do this. It's the reason I get out of bed in the morning, you know, working as a motion designer, just a way to like, give me skills and money and time.

So I can like go do personal work. It is just everything. Like I, I, I swear I will be doing passion projects till the, till the day I die, which sounds kind of dramatic, but like, I really, really enjoy this. Um, and I've always been that way. Like literally since I was like 16, I've been making videos and like, I've never not had a video.

Project going on in the worst times of, of my career. And like, you know, frankly, my life, [00:58:00] that's been the times where I've not been working on something personal. So for me, it's just like, it's, it's just like everything to me when I was starting out, I'd make YouTube videos with my friends and it wasn't like a successful, you know, YouTube career or anything, but like, it was just so much fun.

Um, And like me and my friends, we made this song, uh, called the Joe song, which was about my friend, Joe. Um, and the song literally just goes like Joe, Joe, Joe. But like, uh, we made this video. It was a ton of fun. And then like. This radio station in Chicago, um, started using it for one of their segments because the producer was called Joe.

And then they interviewed us on their show on national Joe day. And I feel like I, you know, between that and balloon and like what I'm doing now, like that stuff. It's just like the best part of, of having a creative career. And I think as time goes on, it can be really easy to like, when the money starts rolling in [00:59:00] to just see this more as a job and less as like a fulfilling creative practice.

And as, as for what I'm doing now, like, yeah, these sort of like short one minute videos, like a minute duration. It's, it's pretty simple animation, pretty simple design. Um, it it's been really good. Cause I'm like, Following the same format, but I'm, I'm doing it again and again and again, iteratively. And I've found like my sort of workflow for making these types of videos is improved.

And I think the quality of the videos is improving. I think if you do a personal project, if you find something that you can do like sort of in the same vein over and over again, like Monday's challenge is a really good thing where you do these five second loops. If you did that, like every week, You're doing the same thing iteratively and you start to get like good at picking out like what's working and is not working.

And I think it helps improve your skills. You know, I think it was like, um, I'm probably going to mess this up, but [01:00:00] I'm pretty sure it was Claude Monet, like painted some lily pads or something like every day for years. And, you know, it helped make him a better painter overall, because he was sort of like.

Repeating the same motions over and over again. But yeah, personal work is everything.

EM: Yeah. And you hit a good point there too. And it's not like, you know, you're doing the same shit over and over again, just to, you know, um, I don't know that that could sound boring without context, obviously, but I think there's like.

Something very therapeutic about kind of getting lost in the process a bit. Like, yes, every, especially for the videos you're making, I think there's like, yeah, you have like a system, you have a consistent style, which is great from a branding perspective, but you've reduced the like workflow, I guess, or the time and effort.

To iterate on these, like you've reduced that amount of effort so much since you first started that you're able to just like get these ideas out quicker. And then, which is, that has to be so helpful, [01:01:00] right? Cause like you're, you know, yeah. So you have this like long list of ideas and you know, you could just like noodle on all of these ideas a little bit throughout time.

But you're able to push these out relatively quickly and then move on to the next one, because, uh, like, kind of like you've already said, like your drive to just make personal work is what this is all about.

Patrick Gallagher: Yeah, absolutely. And it's about like realizing that, uh, you know, it's a classic saying, but like perfection is the enemy of done, you know, just like doing a little bite sized project and giving yourself a deadline and putting it out.

And even if you're like 80 percent happy with it, just put it out and move on to the next one. Cause that like iteration is really where you improve. And I think cause I've got this format, I'm like kind of doing the same, certain things are the same every time, right? Like I don't need to set up, uh, you know, the safe areas for Instagram.

And I don't need to, I don't need to do the boring stuff over and over again, but where I'm, Improving, I think, I hope is, [01:02:00] is in like my video writing skills and getting a really good understanding of like, Um, you know, like pacing or, or like the dynamic link between premiere and after effects or, you know, that kind of thing, like I can, it, it totally frees me up to focus more energy on the stuff that is really, uh, important to me, like, yeah, like basically like the writing and, uh, yeah.

And, and like another side of it that I find super fascinating is like, some of my videos, like have, have done really good numbers and some of them have done like, You know, really bad numbers. And like, I love like analyzing stuff, you know, like why Disney world doesn't have mosquitoes. It's like that video got like 800, 000 views or something.

And I'm like, why, why that one? And why not the Pepsi one? And like, you can see like your retention graph and you can see people leaving the video when you kind of [01:03:00] make a hard transition that doesn't flow. So I'm like, okay, in the next video, I'm going to like. Make the storytelling flow more and you know, you kind of, you move on and you, and you can kind of just look at stuff and see what's working, what's not working.

And it's just very iterative. It's, it's almost like the iPhone, right? Like the, the iPhone, whatever, 12 or whatever is just like an iteration of the same product, but it's just like made a little bit better every time.

EM: Yeah, I think you hit a really good point there with the retention graph and like the analytics and, you know, not to get too nerdy in like the algorithms and like what.

Works and what doesn't, but I know how easy it is to get soaked up in the validation aspect of it, like the engagement validation of likes, comments or whatever, how many shares, but I like how you're using this actual data that you're getting back to improve your. content, improve your workflow. And like, people are literally telling you what they want in a way, or at least telling you what they don't want.

Has that kind of always been a way that you've operated, um, kind of like [01:04:00] using data like that to improve like your workflow or is that more of a relatively new for a project like this?

Patrick Gallagher: Yeah. I mean, I think everyone takes their creative practice in different ways. Like some people will just make like. I don't know, like pottery or something and they don't need to upload it to social media.

And it's just their thing. I'm very, like, I want to know what people are into and that's just the way I am. And I think in terms of like, I just want like what I do to be appreciated or to be good or, um, whatever. But like, I think what's, Interesting and is sort of like a nuanced thing is that, um, when I make a video, it's like when you get into motion design, you, you sort of like get detached from your ideas.

So like when you're in a studio, you put out like, you know, 10 ideas and the creative director throws them all in the bin, you know, and you, you quickly learn to like separate yourself or your self worth from your work. And I [01:05:00] think that's where I'm at with my personal stuff. I like I made this video about this idea and this idea clicked and this one didn't.

And. What about this idea is appealing to people and what about this idea is appealing to people and or not and and like It's not so wrapped up in like me as a person. Yeah, I think I think like in terms of feedback Stuff like data is like a I mean, it's useful. I think feedback when you get it, right? If you show someone a video and you the best feedback you can get is just look at their eyes.

Like, are their eyes watching the video? Are they like, kind of like looking around the room? Or like, if you send someone a video on like Instagram, whatever, like, Hey, check out this thing I made. And they don't respond like in a few days or something. Uh, that's a sign that you probably just didn't make an interesting video.

If you show someone something, And they don't respond for a few days. And then when they do respond, they're like, Oh yeah, it was really good with feedback. It's [01:06:00] important to like read between the lines and stuff. And like, you know, as far as like retention or whatever, like, you know, it's, there's a, there's another sort of nuance there.

Like just because something has good retention. Doesn't mean it's like a good video, you know, like I, I could watch a video of Messi's 10 best goals and I don't connect with that video creator. But if I, if I watch a video of, uh, maybe the finale of succession, like that attention. Even though both had a high attention graph, the finale of Succession connected with me so much more on like an emotional level.

I think, I think I've always been like analytical, like into feedback, just trying to make what I do better. But it's really important to understand the nuances of feedback and also to not tie yourself up too much in the numbers.

EM: Patrick, thank you for sharing all those insights into the data and the analytical and the actual insights into [01:07:00] your personal work.

Um, I mean, you've created quite an audience in there. Some videos have gone viral. We'll be sure to link to some of those in the show notes after the show. But at that point, I think we've hit time and I want to thank you for joining the show. You provided So much value to the audience that I think we're trying to reach here, this emerging motion designer.

So I would like to like, thank you once again, and please let us know where people can like find your work, find your Instagram. We'd love to hear where we can find that.

Patrick Gallagher: Yeah, you can find my work on Instagram. It's a Patrick Gallagher, but Gallagher spelled G A L A G H E R. That's where you can find me and through there, you'll can find my website and stuff, but, uh, I, I am serious.

Like if you need someone to look over anything or want to talk to me about anything, just, just, um, message me. And I'm sure like a lot of Kyle's other guests will say the same motion design is such an inclusive. Industry, and [01:08:00] there's basically no barriers to anyone. Like we all help each other out and yeah, I wish you guys the best and always keep learning and I'll try and do the same.

So thank you, Kyle.

EM: I want to thank Patrick Gallagher so much for talking with us today. You can check out links to his work and the site and the show notes and connect with him further from there. I hope you were able to take something valuable away from our conversation today and relate to it in a way that can help you on your journey to becoming an everyday motion designer.

Thank you for being a fan of the show and please subscribe to the show wherever you listen to your podcast. You can follow the podcast on Instagram. At everyday motion dot podcast. Don't hesitate to reach out with any questions, feedback, or any other way that you'd like to support the show. Today's music is brought to you by the artist cause monkey, and the song is titled feel the night.

Also, I'd love to give a big shout out to Matthew Johnston for mixing today's episode. And another big shout out to a fellow motion designer, Maddie Alexander, for [01:09:00] editing the episode as well. Thank you both so much. The show would not be possible without your help. Thank you once again for tuning in, and we look forward to sharing our next conversation with you.

Now let's kick it to the music.