Everyday Motion: A podcast for the emerging motion designer

EM: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Everyday Motion Podcast, where we guide the emerging motion designer on their way to becoming an everyday motion designer. My name is Kyle Harter, and I'll be your host as I talk with these everyday motion designers. In this episode, I'll be talking with Gordon Howie. He's a freelance motion designer.

animator, director, and so much more. In today's conversation, we talked about developing your skill set as a motion designer, receiving and applying feedback from people who have more experience than you, bringing play into personal work and so much more. Now let's get to the conversation with Gordon Howie.

Gordon, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast.

Gordon Howie: Hello, and thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

EM: Yes, of course. Love to have you. I know you and I have kind of been in touch for the past, I think, year ish? Maybe a little bit longer in different, like, Discord servers. And, um, you know, we've gotten to know each other a bit, and I just knew I had to have you on the podcast because [00:01:00] Of course, you know, I could sing your praises on your talents all day, but I think your experience in the industry is something that I think our audience could really take a lot from, and you do such a good job at articulating it.

Thanks. Uh, so before we kind of like get into like all the nitty gritty, uh, I kind of, I like to pose this question to, um, to my guests to. You know, let's give us a little bit of a background and that is kind of an easy one. I hope it's an easy one. How did you get into motion design?

Gordon Howie: Sure. So I think from a very young age, I was really interested in filmmaking.

Um, I must have been around eight years old or something when I did an after school club and one of the activities was to make a film. And from that point onwards, it was just, I love making films in my free time. Um, and that's eventually turned into, you know, something that I wanted to take seriously. So I went to university, um, and studied filmmaking and screenwriting.

Um, and [00:02:00] it was during the course that I think a lot of my concepts and ideas, they were just so much better suited to animation. So I got introduced to After Effects from the, a visual effects point of view. Um, and while I was playing with After Effects, I realized I could actually make artwork and then bring it in and, you know, rig up the characters and add atmosphere and stuff like that.

So, It was probably during uni that I really discovered it and then when I graduated, that's when I began to really think, Oh, I could pursue this as a career and I enjoyed it so much more than anything else I'd done before. Um, so yeah, that was kind of the starting point, like a little bit of narrative and filmmaking and then eventually I started making infographics.

That's kind of my beginning point. I was doing a lot of explainer videos for small businesses and stuff like that. Um, yeah, so that's kind of where it all began.

EM: Awesome. No, yeah, no, I appreciate that. I think that helps. It gives us like kind of like a good starting point into, you know, just how your, I guess your journey, your professional and creative [00:03:00] journey is like where you've traveled to today.

So I kind of want to like to peel back that a little bit and dive in a little bit more. You know, you said, you know, when you're in uni and there's a, you know, you got that, I guess that moment where you're like, Oh, I can bring an artwork and I can kind of make this my own. And it's after effects is more than a VFX tool.

I guess, what was that moment for you that the switch like, just like flipped where you're like, Oh, I want to just do this for a job, or I want to do this to make my income. Uh, yeah. What was that

Gordon Howie: for you? I think it was a combination of different things. I think there was a bit of a practical element to it.

I quite like that. animation you could sort of organize. Well, you know, the scale of what I was making at that point, I could manage the production all on my own, you know, I could design the characters and do the backgrounds and things like that. Whereas live action, you know, there was so many more logistics to try and organize the different people together, get the right kind of, um, agreements to use a certain location and stuff like that.

Um, [00:04:00] so that was the main aspect of like, Oh, this feels so much easier to actually organize. But then obviously as you do more and things become more complex, you need more teams and you know, you do just as much planning, but I think, yeah, artistically and creatively I felt it was a lot more expressive and I could see and communicate the things I wanted to see a lot more effectively through animation.

So that was sort of another thing in my mind that I thought. Yeah, it, it just felt like a more powerful tool to tell stories with. That's awesome.

EM: So, okay, that's pretty powerful, especially to, I guess, how to have that mindset and that belief when you're, you know, at the end of uni or maybe even during it and coming out of it.

So, you know, being equipped with this mindset, uh, please correct me if I'm wrong too on any of the timeliness of this, but, um, like when you're coming out of uni, You know what? What were your thoughts? Like, did you feel like that you were ready for the industry at that point? Or did you feel [00:05:00] like, yeah, what was what was what were you kind of going through there?

Gordon Howie: Um, not at all. Yeah, it was a bit of a strange headspace, to be honest, because I think throughout my life, you know, teachers and even to a degree, some of my family, when I, you know, said I wanted to pursue filmmaking and direction, did Quite often there is an air of, Oh, you know, it's good for you, but what's plan B kind of thing.

So there is just an undercurrent of this is potentially going to fail for me. So I think when I graduated, I had this like desire to be, you know, I was like, I'm going to make it, I'm going to prove to people that I can do this and I'm good at it. Um, but because I was in a bit of a strange place in terms of, I had all this motion graphics experience but I had just studied filmmaking, I looked to an employer a little bit kind of, I guess it might not have been clear cut what I was offering them.

So my first year out of uni I was kind of freelancing. Whilst I was working in hospitality, before I got my first studio job, and I [00:06:00] just knocked on everybody's doors because I was so determined not to, essentially not to prove anyone right that it was a bad idea to do this.

EM: Mm hmm.

Gordon Howie: Um, so that really did fuel me forward, I think.

And also, you know, I believed in myself and I knew that I could offer a lot. Um, but it, it did take a lot of door knocking to, To sort of secure my first couple of projects.

EM: Cool. I mean, no, that was great. Cause I want, I want to dive into that some more as well. Cause you know, mirroring this to this emerging motion designer that I, you know, that, or I guess that this podcast is targeted at, you know, I'm sure they have some similar feelings as well as when they're coming out of university, college, wherever they're at coming into the industry, I think they know that it has to be a lot of door knocking that door knocking looks different.

And, you know, maybe now than when we were. You know, a bit younger getting into the industry because now it's the whole outreach game. The, uh, the cold emailing, the maybe DMing on Instagram or whatever social platform. When you [00:07:00] were reaching out to, say, these studios and trying to find the one that would just let you in a little bit, what were you finding that worked and what didn't work at that time, like in terms of, um, like making a connection with these people

Gordon Howie: from memory?

I think a lot of my code emails weren't very successful, to be honest, and I got a lot of my leads through going to networking events. and stuff like that. So I think face to face was a lot easier for me because I could do such a range of different skill sets or, you know, I had that in my back pocket. It was much easier to kind of talk about, Oh, maybe we could do this and we could do that type thing.

And, you know, I think at that point in time, there is no real resource out there to kind of help you market yourself in a way that there is now.

EM: So

Gordon Howie: yeah, for me, it was definitely going along in Scotland. Anyway, we've got quite a lot of free like business type. meetings run by different government bodies.

So you can go along to like, learn about how to set yourself up as a sole trader, blah, blah, blah, [00:08:00] that kind of thing. So I think if you go along to stuff like this, I mean, this worked for me 14 years ago, so it may not be the same now, but Yeah, I just made sure I was like visible and people were meeting me and knew who I was.

Um, and that's really how my name started getting passed around because someone would be like, Oh, I met Gordon at this event about blah, blah, whatever. You know, you should talk to him kind of thing. So yeah, that's how it all began for me really was like physically going to to networking events.

EM: Cool. So yeah, uh, Gordon on the heels of that at the, you know, the networking event, um, where you found, I guess, like your, your footing and, you know, you found success there and connecting with people.

Yeah. Uh, how would you kind of compare the experiences of, you know, these newer artists and obviously yourself back then trying to connect with people through, say, a cold email outreach or an email thread compared to something a bit more in person and face to face?

Gordon Howie: Yeah, I, I think my preference would always be face to face or even a zoom call.

Um, I [00:09:00] think when you're reaching to people. It's harder sometimes to, you know, through conversation, things can come up that you can connect with, with this other person. And that thing that you connect on may be the very thing that tips their decision over to, Oh, I really want to work with this person or, yeah, I think it gives your potential client a much better overview of who you are.

If you're able to like see them in person or talk to them over a, you know, a zoom call. Code emails can work, but it becomes more memorable to that person. I think.

EM: I completely agree there because I, uh, some one thing that I say to a lot of people, especially when they're first getting into the freelance world.

And when I'm sharing my experience from the past year and a half, and even before that, the studio system is people hire people, computers don't hire people, you know, especially when you see, um, you know, uh, linkedin or elsewhere where you like thousands of applicants for this one motion designer role or this one artist role.

It's so hard to set [00:10:00] yourself apart. However, I feel like it's so much more valuable, like, like you said, if you're able to get them on a zoom call, if you don't live in the same area or just, uh, convenience or time doesn't work out that, like, obviously, if you have the benefit of meeting in a meetup or networking type event, I feel like you're not so limited to like a concise email that you're trying to send.

I feel like exactly able to be yourself a bit to, uh, I find in those instances.

Gordon Howie: Yeah, totally. I agree. Um, so yeah, that would be my first tip to anyone who's like just leaving uni, um, is try and get along to, you know, as many kind of in person events as you can, um, or if you are sending code emails, always offer to be like, Oh, hey, you know, if you have time, it'd be great if we could hop on a resume and just to have like a 15 minute coffee together or something like that.

That's worked for me in the past. And I think that's, um, yeah, a more immediate way to connect with someone.

EM: So on the heels of that, and, you know, we'll move forward in a second, but I [00:11:00] want to ask one more question to kind of like wrap up this point, um, you know, from I'm thinking from the perspective, you know, of this emerging motion designer.

And, you know, when we were first starting out as well, I remember being so fixated on trying to have the perfect real or perfect portfolio to reach out to these people that could either hire me or even just like get to know them. And that was always always found one thing or another to just like prevent me.

It's like, I have to have the perfect thing to talk to these people. So I say all that to ask you is like what, what kind of insights or advice would you give to say that these emerging motion designers when they're kind of wrestling with those? Um, I guess those obstacles that that are either in their way or that they put in their way before reaching out to people.

Do they need the perfect portfolio? I'm using perfect like very loosely here, but, uh, yeah, what are your thoughts on that?

Gordon Howie: I think, yeah, I feel like don't let anything hold you back in terms of reaching out to these people, um, [00:12:00] especially if you feel maybe your portfolio isn't developed enough. I do think there is a bit of, I think you need to have something there to show them just as a sort of, um, Oh, what's the word I'm looking for?

Not validation, but like, like, like a

EM: proof of concept.

Gordon Howie: And yeah, exactly. Just Proof is in the pudding, like, you know, if someone reached out to me cold, you know, and said, Hey, I'm this amazing artist, but didn't have anything to show me, I would be a bit like, you know, so I think, yeah, your portfolio, I think don't get hung up on it being completely perfect.

Put as much work in there as you can, that you think is relevant and represents you the best. Um, and finished is always better than perfect. So as long as you're demonstrating that you have got the technical ability and creative,

EM: you know,

Gordon Howie: mindset to create this stuff, I think, yeah, you need to have something there.

Um, but it doesn't need to be completely perfect. Okay.

EM: I think that, that, uh, like mindset of, um, I guess like perfection [00:13:00] or you need it to be to like crazy standards that your work probably can't even live up to yet. Okay. Is would really set you up for failure and probably just stand in your way of just kind of like, uh, like failing forward in a way.

Yeah, because I think if I was in their shoes, I would rather have my, at least now, obviously hindsight being 2020, I'd rather have my. Work be maybe like subpar student level and come go to like a seasoned professional to get feedback if you know if they're able to have the time rather than try to, you know, build all this up in my head and set my expectations too high and then still just to get feedback that I think that would like to moralize my ego or something like that.

But I like the way you said that, like finishes better than perfect and, uh. I feel like we even now as seasoned professionals still wrestle with that.

Gordon Howie: I had a, um, portfolio review with Ryan Summers and he was [00:14:00] really great at, or he said something that really stuck with me, which was, because at this point I was trying to finish off my showreel.

Um, and I think because my skillset does lend itself to different types of work, it was stressing me out. How do I summarize this in one single reel? And he just simply said, he's like, you can have different reels, by the way, you know, you can have one for characters, one for this, one for that, um, and it doesn't have to be jammed into this one thing.

I don't know why that gave me such clarity, but it was kind of, and it was really obvious, but yeah, your reel also doesn't need to be this one shiny thing that will never change. You can update it as frequently as you want. You can have multiple, you could have like a 15 second one. Yeah, I think. Breaking out of the box of like, you have to have this one perfect portfolio and one perfect showreel, I think needs to kind of, we need to change that a little bit, I think.

EM: I really love that because I get sucked into that all the time [00:15:00] where, you know, I, my style lends more to, you know, 2D motion design. And I can do a lot within that area and even some skill sets outside of it. So, but I always kind of limit myself to, Oh, it has to be the one real or the, uh, you know, the, whatever the work on the site is has to be.

Just these, you know, maybe the size a little bit different than the real here, but in the context of the real, I like that. I mean, Ryan's a really smart guy, really, really seasoned and experienced. So when he told you that, like, how, how do you approach your reels now? I guess, how many do you have and like, how do you kind of break them up?

Gordon Howie: Well, I haven't implemented this feedback yet. So, um, I mean, one thing I did do, because my showreel at that point was one minute long, so I now have one that's, um, one minute and then one that's 15 seconds, um, so the 15 second one, which I've now actually turned into, or parts of it, [00:16:00] into a little GIF. So when I do my cold outreach now, I'll put a GIF into the email with some of my best shots so that you can immediately see this thing looping.

But I think I probably will do, you know, maybe this is Gordon, you know, one minute showcase of everything. And then I'll maybe do like one for characters, um, and maybe a show real geared toward like commercial work and more infographic stuff that isn't really on my site anywhere. But you know, I can offer that as well.

So I think whether I share that publicly, I don't know, but it could be something that I show clients that I potentially work with, but you know, isn't part of my kind of character world. Yeah. And I think would be really helpful for me. Sure.

EM: I think that makes a lot of sense too, because you know, you can't obviously on your portfolio just put everything that you do, right?

Like, yeah, maybe certain, there's certain like famous, I guess, motion designers that probably could in a way and get away with it. Just because I think Gmonk does that. What I did, it seems like what you're [00:17:00] speaking to as well is I keep like a motion catalog on my like Frame. io account that I don't release publicly.

Yeah. Absolutely. So it's like, Oh, you're asking if I can do this thing, this thing isn't something that I would put on my portfolio per se, because it's not say, I don't know, super sexy or maybe my favorite, but it shows that I can do this thing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think being able to quickly pull from a catalog or a selection, whether it's a real or even a motion piece.

I think that's that speaks louder than just you trying to say, Oh, yeah, I know how to do particular and after effects, or I know how to do this without without having the proof in the pudding. Like you mentioned before. Yeah,

Gordon Howie: exactly. Yeah, the idea of Oh, yes, not having. Uh, don't focus on perfection. So I think, yeah, just showcase your work as best as you can.

And I appreciate when you're a student, you know, that may be a little bit thinner, but I think as long as you've got something to demonstrate your skillset and also your enthusiasm, I think that does go a long way. So don't be put off by, well, I've only [00:18:00] got X, Y, or Z there. At least you've got something to show, you know?

EM: Yeah, no, that's a perfect way to kind of wrap up this little bit. All right. Just sitting. You know, kind of giving these emerging motion designers, this like framework in a way, or maybe this perspective to think about how presenting their work and outreaching to clients, you know, I would love to talk about like your first job, like your first role in the like creative field, you know, I know you said for a period you were freelance and.

In the hospitality, but when you got that first studio job, I would really love for you to kind of like walk us through a little bit and and even walk us through some of the like challenges you faced there as you were trying to get your footing in the industry.

Gordon Howie: Sure. So I was working freelance for a year and then my first studio job because I had done all that freelance work, I had a much healthier portfolio.

And my first studio job was with an architectural visualization place. So we were doing a lot of like compositing of [00:19:00] 3D renders of You know, like building developments, housing schemes and stuff like that. Um, and we also did a lot of logistical planning. So a lot of construction companies would come to the studio.

And I think in order to engage stakeholders and things like that, they had to demonstrate, you know, phase one, we would do this. Phase two, we would do that. So a lot of the times it was me taking like masks and stuff from renders and then highlighting, you know, the lorry would come in here and then go out there and all this kind of stuff.

Yeah, it was an interesting job for, you know, it's not a typical motion design studio. And I think a lot of the work, the nature of it was quite high pressure because obviously these construction companies, it was big amounts of money that they were pitching for. Quite often there's just an air of stress, really.

And sometimes in the moment it was like difficult to work through, but I think in hindsight it really, it was a great training ground for me to kind of build up a bit of confidence in what I was doing. And also it gave me really great [00:20:00] insight into managing clients and the kind of language you should be using, you know, when you're talking about creative projects, you know, just in terms of like how to negotiate, like if the client wants to increase the scope, how you would negotiate that, uh, you know, finding compromises and stuff that still work within certain budgets.

EM: Wow. Okay. This sounds like a really great opportunity when like for a first job, like you mentioned, it wasn't, you know, like typical motion design studio. However, you got an education and sure you got to like play with the tools. You got to like learn how to work in an actual studio. But you also got to learn some of the like, I guess the business jargon, the, you know, the how things work in the creative process.

Because I feel like that's something, you know, if you didn't really have that experience, then you probably would have had a little bit of Challenge navigating the freelance landscape of that you're in today, which we'll, we'll definitely get there. We'll dive into that kind of like diving more into that learning process when you're at this first [00:21:00] job.

Were you just like a sponge, like taking this all in or yeah, I guess I'd love to hear just like what, what was Gordon like in these moments, like partly because I know for me when I got my first like studio kind of job, like I, I bounced around a little bit in the beginning. I was scared of shit. Like I, like I wanted to ask, I wanted to be helpful.

But also at the same time, I'm like, I don't want to look, I don't want to be a fraud. I don't want to look like I don't know anything, even though I didn't know anything. Yeah. So what, what was that kind of experience for you starting out?

Gordon Howie: Yeah. No, I distinctly remember my first day, you know, where I was positioned in the studio.

I could hear quite a lot of the, it was like an open plan studio space. So I could hear a lot of conversations happening with some of the senior designers and between different artists. And I remember, I wish I could, maybe actually see if I've got it somewhere, but I had my little notebook and I was just writing down every word that I didn't understand.[00:22:00]

So I've got this really weird list, it's like, Z dip pass or ambient occlusion kept coming up because I had never done 3d before, so I had no idea what half of these terms were, um, and they used, I can't remember what it was called now, but they had this funny name for the render farm that they kept referring to.

I was like, what the hell is this? So, yeah, my first day I didn't ask too many questions, but I just jotted down a lot of things and tried to research at home. Um, and then over time I got a bit more confident to actually question people, to be like, you know, what does this mean, or could you talk me through this?

And yeah, I asked as much as I could, um, and also just sneakily took my own notes to be like, okay, I need to follow up on this. What the hell is a ambient occlusion? I love

EM: that. I can just, I can picture it now. Like, you know, they're having this like, you know, typical maybe work conversation of talking workflow or something.

And here's, uh, you know, young Gordon, just like in the next cubicle over or the next desk over jotting down which way he working. But he has like no [00:23:00] idea what the fuck is going on.

Gordon Howie: Yeah, it's just so funny when you look back in your career like that. Like God, I really have come such a long way. It's crazy.

EM: Those moments are pretty, like, fulfilling, aren't they? Yeah. Because I think that's something, well, I didn't think about too much when I was younger. I mean, and why would you? You're caught up in the moment of trying to make it or survive. But I think in that mindset a bit more now, where I'm like, oh man, in like 5 or 10 years, I'm going to look back on these times and they're going to, I'm probably going to think this or maybe this.

Um, but, you know, thinking about those formative years is like, oh, as like tough or daunting as it was. That was a really cool experience to embark on.

Gordon Howie: Just keep putting one key frame in front of the other and you'll be fine. Like, as scary as it is, take as many notes as you can and ask as many questions as you can.

Um. Yeah. What about you? What was your, do you remember your first day in the studio? Were you doing a similar thing, just taking notes and stuff like that?

EM: Oh, I [00:24:00] thought, I thought I was the interviewer. Uh, no, I love this here. I don't mind at all. Um, so my experience was a little different in that when I first got out of school, I moved up to Philadelphia from Florida.

So different environment. I was in a big city compared to Orlando where I was then and am now today. But so I was working at a Starbucks transferred and then I got hired at the city of Philadelphia like government office. They had some kind of content they were making for the city to help their 311 calls and for those who aren't familiar, 311 is essentially just like city information on how 311 is essentially just like city information on how Garbage pickup works or how zoning issues so very boring stuff and I was making like 1250 an hour.

So I was like pumped because I was making money more money than at Starbucks. And so with that, though, I got hired as a producer because they didn't really know [00:25:00] how to edit at all. I was scared of computers. But once I got into that, it was a little bit of a different scenario because I didn't know how to, uh, there was anyone else around me to ask questions to in that specific job where I was doing the work every day.

However, I was also a studio assistant at the same time at this studio across town that was, they, they were like a video production company and then they also had like a photo studio that they rented out to the public and they had like three businesses in one. They're still, they're still like killing it today.

But, uh, so I was there. I became their studio assistant. So, but whenever people would come in and do like editing sessions or, um, or do you like animation projects? That's when I would like peek over and learn what motion design was. Nice. I knew what the term was to what I had seen so much of and I remember just taking notes and just asking fuck tons of questions, probably being really annoying, but it was that moment.

I think I had a switch flip where I started to [00:26:00] see how the sauce was made. Essentially, like what ingredients kind of went into it and I just got obsessed. So that's what I would just do. I would, like, learn there for my four hours Every, you know, three days a week and then and then apply it to the government job.

Yeah, exactly. It was like a learning ground and I think those were take a lot out of those experiences because I could have easily say if I didn't have that studio assistant experience, I might not have like had that professional kind of guidance because the government job would have taken whatever I put out essentially for 1250 an hour capped at like 20 hours a week, I think.

So yeah, so that was essentially it. I mean, kind of boiling it down. I was able to get this professional guidance and there's people that I still keep in contact with today. And take that and apply it to this boring government work, but I was getting my my reps in. I was getting the, I guess I was just like scratching that itch of like this obsession that I was starting to build and, [00:27:00] you know, followed by the endless, uh, you know, then it was called lynda.

com tutorials, YouTube, all this stuff. So to answer your question, I took tons of notes. I had like no, like these like legal pads that I would buy from the store and just like fill up. Yeah. With like keyboard, keyboard shortcuts. This is how you do this. This is how you do that. Yeah. And, uh, and that eventually just helped me, I guess, become a bit more confident, uh, as an artist before applying at other studios and stuff like that.

Gordon Howie: Yeah, for sure. And even just, yeah, taking those notes and going home and doing your own research, it, well, it made me feel a bit more comfortable to start asking more questions, whereas I think those first few days I was just like, it felt like everyone was speaking a completely different language to me.

Yeah, it's funny because like there's so much access to YouTube and all the rest of it. There's so much more resource out there that yeah, I feel like people are going to be more equipped now to go into studio work. I think you would

EM: hope, uh, well, [00:28:00] yeah, I, I, I definitely come across people, mostly people on like different discord servers that they'll just come, uh, maybe they're just younger or I don't know.

Maybe they just haven't developed that, uh, I guess intuition of how to ask. The right kind of questions where it's like essentially questions they would type into Google. It's like, Oh, what does this do in after effects and expecting a human to answer them? Uh, so I had, I had to learn that then too, because you know, these freelancers and people that I was asking questions to in a studio they're busy.

So I, I was like quickly learning that I can't just ask like, Oh, what's a track mat? I think the questions just start to look a little bit different. You know, we still ask what we ask questions every day now, right? So people who are more experienced than us. Uh, like I would love to know how you do a lot of the effects work that you do, but I think the questions are instead of, Hey, what does this button do?

And more so, Hey, I tried this doing this thing for this kind of project. How could I improve this? Or I think they get a bit more [00:29:00] focused and a bit more narrowed down. I guess, like, did you find yourself in those situations when you were asking these questions on becoming? Yeah, I'm just developing as an artist.

Would you find these questions were becoming a bit more specific over time? You know, less less Google search more, uh, yeah,

Gordon Howie: definitely. Yeah. Um, and one thing actually that I picked up from, um, the lead that I had in my first studio. So when he was doing critiques of my work, it would never be, he didn't do like the shit sandwich approach.

He would, um, come over and if there was something that he felt wasn't working, he would point at it basically and be like, Oh, can you just talk me through, like, what was your thought process? You're like, why did you do, you know, this shot this way? I had to like really start to justify why I was doing things.

Yeah. Um, and it wasn't, you know, I couldn't say, Oh, it's cause it looks cool. You know, I had to start thinking about, Oh yeah, I want the audience to look over this direction or that direction. I don't know that it gave me such a great awareness of why I was doing what I was doing.

EM: Well, yeah, right. Cause [00:30:00] you, was it because they were like not talking down to you?

Like maybe a shit sandwich approach in a way, uh, which I think we should define that for the audience real quick. Uh, yeah, yeah. So yeah, real quick, can you kind of give your, your definition of the shit sandwich?

Gordon Howie: Yeah. The shit sandwich is usually like compliment followed by a critique, which is usually negative ended with another compliment just to soften the blow.

And yeah, some people use it. I think it's maybe a little bit old school now that that sort of train of thought, but I really loved you called Jared Gannon. Shout out to Jared. He would always question me, um, in a way that really made me evaluate my work, which I really appreciated.

EM: Yeah, I, I think that sounds incredibly invaluable because, you know, they're not like, like, before we, uh, mentioned the definition is they're not just giving you this shit sandwich to just like, Hey, here's the sandwich and then just leave you with it, you know, they're, they're giving you an active role and [00:31:00] evaluating your own work.

And I, I think doing that from an early stage in your career is going to set you up for so much more success because. Um, if you can't evaluate your own work and define your taste and really learn what good work looks like, then I think you're going to find a hard time maybe elevating your work later on.

You could, I think you could find yourself in a bit of a rut or plateau, uh, if you're unable to evaluate your work, but yeah, a little bit of a side. Yeah, I know there's a little bit of a side tangent, but I find that being a, um, a common, or at least a theme that I see with students that I teach, um, digital media to, but also, you know, Uh, some people that I mentor or just chat with that are a little bit more inexperienced and it's, um, sometimes they just don't have that, that taste yet that's developed or the ability to, like, evaluate their work.

And I feel like, you know, if they're, if they're able to find someone who can [00:32:00] fulfill that role that you said Jared filled. Yeah, I feel like that, that would just set them up on the right path to, to at least figuring out where, where they can take their work from there.

Gordon Howie: Yeah, for sure. One thing I took away, you know, now that I'm a little bit older and I do critique work, one thing that I loved was, uh, he would say things like, you know, I don't think this shot is successful yet because X, Y, and Z, and there was always a sort of, um, actionable point.

Like, I think, why don't you explore X, Y, and Z? It was never kind of like, you should do this or that. It was like, why don't you think about it? these things and that will make this more successful. And I think just changing it ever so slightly to more, yeah, it was like giving power to me to make those choices, but also giving me the awareness of why it wasn't working, I think really helped me out.

EM: Interesting. I think that's a great way to like end last bit about receiving critique, especially if there's someone out there that's like mentoring students, maybe like myself. I'm talking to myself. I think it's like [00:33:00] trying to help empower these younger artists and, you know, try to steer away from that shit sandwich technique because it doesn't really give like the awareness and the ability to evaluate their own work.

So yeah, I appreciate all the insight on that. So kind of moving forward a little bit and we might like fast forward a little, uh, a little bit through your creative journey. But I would love to hear how, hey, you left this, you're at the studio, Wildchild, and how did you kind of go from there to the freelancer that you are today?

Maybe a little bit of, a little bit of plot points along the way would be helpful. You know, were you like in the studio system? Were you freelancing? Uh, or maybe something else. I would love to hear what happened there.

Gordon Howie: So Yeah, um, during my time at the architectural visualization studio, it was amazing and I had learned so much.

But I think because my background was in filmmaking and screenwriting, you know, I was definitely a very, you know, a lot of my ideas were more narrative [00:34:00] driven. And that was always like my guiding force through, you know, leading up to me going to uni and everything after that. So I was in the architectural place for four years and I think toward the end I was just getting itchy feet the whole time.

And I just felt my voice just wasn't really right for this kind of corporate environment. So the truth is I left to work for a TV studio and it didn't go very well. Let me just keep this short and sweet, but sure. This is a really good learning experience. So. I took a job which I thought essentially had been sort of pitched to me, you know, that it would be a kind of foot in the door in the industry, blah, blah, blah.

I quit my job at the architect place and I went to work in a local TV station. So I thought, this is it. I've made it. But let's just say eight days later I left, um, whoa, just the environment wasn't right. And yeah, some of the producers there were just. It wasn't a good experience and I've [00:35:00] never had such a strong, visceral reaction inside me to be like, get out of this situation now.

So I left and at this point, you know, I hadn't really freelance for so many years and I didn't have any financial planning. I didn't have anything lined up. So I was like, Oh, what have I done? It was totally the right thing to do. And that kind of began my journey into freelance. So I kind of, it was a bit of an abrupt beginning for me.

Um, but I think I knew that it had to happen and because I didn't have any backup, it really kind of motivated me to really push myself, you know, I started knocking on doors again. But at this point, I had a lot more experience behind me, so it became much easier to connect with different studios and I started picking up small pieces of work that way.

So yeah, I'll, I'll maybe put that on the table there and I don't know if you want to ask me any questions about that because it was quite, uh, I feel like that was such a defining moment for me because I think it also gave me, it really tapped [00:36:00] me into like my own intuition over what is right and wrong for me.

Um, yeah. And I really believe that following your gut instinct is so crucial and especially if you're in a situation that you think, you know, you could say, okay, I'll maybe just write this out and see how it goes. It's like. Life is way too short to waste your time on other people that aren't looking out for you.

So get out there, you know, yeah. I

EM: love that too. Like, are you, are you comfortable if I ask some questions about it? I'll try to, yeah, of course, not as invasive, I'll try to be, I'll try not to be invasive as well. I was trying to say,

Gordon Howie: of course, I wouldn't ever name it as indirectly, so I'll keep it any incriminating bits as big as I can, but I'm totally happy to talk about this because it's, yeah, it was such a

EM: moment.

Yeah. But this is an incriminating podcast, so, uh, no, no, we're good. No, no, no need to name names. So eight days you, uh, I wouldn't even say you last at the studio because you left on your own. Yeah. Is it, is it okay if I ask what? [00:37:00] What?

Gordon Howie: Yeah. So basically the job description was they were hiring for a motion graphics artist to help rebrand this new TV, uh, I think it was a station essentially.

So there'd be different shows broadcast. And they wanted me to do the graphical packages for each show. And on the job description and also in the interview, there was just like a passing comment about, would you be comfortable working with a camera? And I thought, fuck it. Yeah, I am. Why not? Um, day one of the job, it was like, I had two hours to do my graphics work.

And then from 11, I can't even remember the timings now, but it was essentially all day. I was expected to be doing like pre records and also camera work within the studio. Um, and the producer at the time, I wrote down everything that they wanted me to do against time. And I said, you know, this is just unrealistic.

I don't know when I'm going to be able to do all of this. And he essentially said to me that I should be lucky [00:38:00] to have this job. And it's the most unique job in TV. Internally, I'm thinking, you should be lucky that I'm here. What the hell is going on here? That he was making a scene with you. Yeah, you're doing three jobs in one.

It was so wild. And he was essentially framing it like, are you afraid of hard work Gordon? Is this what's going on? And I'm like, no, you're, you're trying to like exploit this situation. What is happening? Um, and yeah, I mean it just day by day it got worse and worse. On the last day, I had a meeting with the HR department as a welcome to the studio introduction.

And at the end of it, he said, does anyone have questions? So I just asked, I was like, can I legally leave without giving any notice? Um, and he confirmed that I could because I'd only been there eight days. So yeah, I basically got up and left and I just was like, Fuck this. Wow. I don't want to say I'm better than this, but it was kind of like, I want to go somewhere where I'm valued and feel [00:39:00] valued and it isn't happening here.

So yeah, it was really wild.

EM: Yeah. Well, okay. First of all, you are better than that because no one deserves to be treated like that. 100%. Because. I think you're, you're speaking to a really important topic in the industry, and I think whether it's creative industry or I think a lot of them where they ask to take the role of like three different creative roles and for one salary, that's very undervalued at that point.

Um, so I mean, that's one aspect of it. But I guess flipping a question to you, what did, aside from never wanting to work with people again, what did you take away from this experience? Has that kind of played a role in how you approach relationships now or things to look out for?

Gordon Howie: I think I've got a better awareness of where my principles are and what I'm willing to compromise on because there were times, you know, I've had projects and stuff where I have had to do extra hours or I've had to do a secondary type role that [00:40:00] isn't accounted for and I don't, those things are okay as long as, well, they aren't okay on paper, but if you believe in the project and the people around it and you understand why those situations have happened, it's more palatable, but when someone's kind of actively exploiting you in front of you and telling you, you should feel lucky for it.

It was kind of like a no brainer that I should have walked out, you know? So I think it's, yeah, it's just giving me a clearer idea of my own value and what I bring to the table. And, uh, people like that don't deserve my time. I'm not meaning that as in me, but I think all artists should have that awareness.

And it's one of those things that I can sit here and say all of this and I think you sometimes kind of have to go through those moments to really feel it and understand it. And I'm not encouraging everyone to be exploited, but you know, when you're faced with it, I think it really does help you be like, you know what?

I'm out. Like, this is not for me. I'm better than this.

EM: I see what you're saying, too. And Ryan Young and I on his episode, we're talking a little bit about [00:41:00] this, about how when you're starting out or the first few years when you're in the industry, I think I want to also echo that no one should feel like they have to be exploited or Anything like that to learn, but I think the younger or the newer you are in the industry, the more vulnerable you probably appear to people who want to take advantage of your time and advantage of, oh, opportunity, because this person They want to make it so they're probably going to want to be open to grinding like working weekend hours and with no extra pay all this stuff.

And I've been in those situations myself and it fucking sucked because I felt like I didn't have a voice to to speak up in that instance. Because I was so worried about, Oh, if I don't do this, I'm gonna get fired or yeah, you know, whatever. But I, I really applaud you for like sticking to your principles there because yeah, I think boundaries are so important now and yeah, I don't [00:42:00] know, it's funny cause I

Gordon Howie: feel like I'm so conflict diverse and I'm also someone who likes to plan for things.

So I think it showed me that like, even though I didn't have a plan, things did come together. Because, you know, I had all this experience and I had a lot to give. So

EM: thank you for sharing that experience, Gordon, because that, you know, as we've just were talking about and discussed before, you know, sometimes these opportunities will like happen to you or someone will try to take advantage of your inexperience.

That's an air quotes or your perceived inexperience. Yeah, however, I think a common issue when it comes to. You know, battling the thoughts of trying to stay at this job to write it out. Or should I just quit? You know, obviously I have my morals. I have my boundaries. I think a common thing here and um, and I think we were going to talk about this anyways, is the financial side of things.

Everyone has different financial [00:43:00] situations, whether you're younger or older, whatever. They're all unique. However, you know, so you're at the studio for eight days. You're probably expecting, you know, whether you were salaried or contract rate, whatever. You know, you're probably expecting, okay, I'm gonna make this much money throughout every month or every two weeks or something.

I would think that a lot of people would probably be maybe averse to up and quitting because it's like, oh, where, what am I gonna do with my income? I don't have like a safety net, maybe, or I don't have X, Y or Z set up. Um, like what, what are your kind of thoughts on that, on, you know, on maybe how these newer artists, these emerging artists can potentially prepare for that.

And maybe I just want to add a disclaimer to like. Not even just prepare for if they get into a toxic, almost toxic situation, but also layoffs happen so often you never know when that's going to happen. And it's out of your control. So how on the financial side of things, how would you kind of suggest that they might be able to prepare for this?

Gordon Howie: I think Yeah, [00:44:00] having some kind of financial buffer is so helpful. And I think the kind of general recommended runway, I think is what it's called is three to six months worth of budget to cover you for any kind of scenario that may pop up. Um, and obviously when you're starting out, that feels like a lot.

So when I immediately graduated, I took a hospitality job, which I didn't want to do, but. I think just the nature of film production and animation anyway is project to project based generally, unless you're obviously in house in the studio. So there are gaps, um, and I think that's why it was slightly trickier to immediately go into a job.

So I thought to myself, well, I've I've got income coming in, I can at least build up a tiny bit of a buffer and then obviously as you start earning more professionally, you can build up a healthier pot of money. But as I said, I didn't really have any, I mean, I did have some savings, but it wasn't enough to really, you know, it put the fear of, yeah, my heart skipped a beat when [00:45:00] I did it because it was like, I am not ready for this.

Um, so generally I like to have, or I tell people I'd say six months is a really good amount of time because typically you will find, you know, you aren't going to be, well, we should also recognize that this past couple of years have been globally very difficult. Um, so there are some people that have been in situations that have lasted longer.

Um, but I feel like six months is a good amount of time to, you know, get out there and find other little projects here and there. Um,

EM: I mean, I think, I think you're speaking to. You know, I think the past couple of years are a great example of that because, you know, some people are out of work for, like you said, 36 months or longer.

Um, and you know who I think it for the common person, whether you're artists or not, I think it's kind of hard to just expect that. Oh, yeah, I can save up a year's worth of expenses. That's my main priority. Like you're Like one thing that's, that's very challenging to do because life happens to, you're probably [00:46:00] also sacrificing your ability to like invest and all these other things that probably won't dive into too much right now on the finance side.

I think if, if that's the, at least something that I think these newer artists consider. As they're getting into the industry is that even if you're making peanuts starting out to say, you know, if you have the ability to freelance on the side, maybe it's some of those reps in or if you're able to at least stash away a little bit like a small percentage just as you're getting started for if or when that layoff happens or if you want to go out on your own and freelance, then you're prepared.

And, uh, because I think the last thing any of us want to do is like make decisions out of desperation. Exactly. Yeah. And because I've done it, I've made very poor financial decisions out of desperation and being ill prepared. So I, I just speak from experience and that happens because the, uh, when I say that, because, um, I think, you know, we can talk [00:47:00] about the art all we want, but I feel like the, the money side of things is so intertwined as well in so many ways.

So you speaking to. Like, you know, being able to create a budget for yourself early on, really kind of like prioritizing getting some kind of emergency fund or stash for you because yeah, I feel like to, I mean, I want to hear your thoughts on this. I, I personally think that not only does that 3 to 6 months of expenses sure keeps you afloat, pays for bills and it helps you, gives you time to look for other jobs, but it also gives you time to just take a rest.

Like if you came from. A toxic situation or maybe even traumatic from a layoff that you're really attached to a job. I feel like you're like you need some time to recover.

Gordon Howie: Yeah. And especially, you know, in a layoff situation, if you don't see that coming, that can, yeah, you're right. It can be a really traumatic adjustment to your life.

So having that safety net there to help [00:48:00] you kind of find your feet is really important. And for me personally, the situation, you know, I finished a short film recently and I was able to take a period of time in between two projects. It was maybe slightly longer than what I'd normally be comfortable with, but because I had my little runway, I was able to actually take the time to do it.

A bigger personal project. So it can also free you that way where you can actually invest more back into yourself. Um, yeah, which I think is also, I guess it's like the polar opposite of the layoff situation. You know, you're actually taking time out to be like, no, this is just for me and I want to do, you know, this thing I've always wanted to do.

So yeah. Yeah, it can kind of free you that way.

EM: I think that that's a perfect segue into this. Maybe this last big chunk of a topic I want to talk about is the personal work and freelance side of things. You did it right. I think you're you're following a model that I think so many of us freelancers and I guess an artist in general want to [00:49:00] do is.

How do we buy back our time so we can do what we want to do is like create art for ourselves and not just for insert whatever client name. Yeah, just talking about the general aspects of personal work here. Your work is, first of all, it's fucking fantastic. I'm a huge fan. There's so much whimsy in it.

And, you know, of course, we'll link to everything in the show notes and a lot of your work. So, you know, I guess asking a specific question here with your personal work is, how does the concept of play factor into your personal work?

Gordon Howie: Yeah, I'd say play is so important. And what I mean, like defining play is quite tricky because obviously we're sitting doing keyframes and work and whatever, but I think the idea is more like not having any expectations over what this is going to be and purely focusing on your, your connection to it, I think is really important.[00:50:00]

And so for example, I think there were, there was a period of time where I guess I was seeking validation, if I'm totally honest, through work and, you know, that was happening over a long period of time and I just wasn't happy with, A, my work and B, I feel like you could feel it. I wasn't communicating what I wanted it to do.

Whereas, yeah, I think now I just, I try and view it with no expectations, like if I make this and I'm the only person that enjoys it and no one else either sees it, you know, that's, that's what I'm focusing on now. And it, I feel like it frees me a lot more and I'm more experimental and more, I guess curious.

I'm like, Ooh, if I do this and this, what's going to happen? I guess it just opens up your imagination a little bit more. Um, I don't know if any of that was making sense there, but, you know, do you,

EM: it makes a lot of sense. Like, I think you, like, you, um, struck a chord in me in the, when you talk about curiosity, Is I think it's so easy to get wrapped up in [00:51:00] client work or studio work or, you know, what do we do for money is that I think sometimes we can lose our ability to just be curious.

Um, I'm a victim of this as well. Uh, much of it is on my own myself that I put on myself. But, you know, I think you're your prioritization to, like, just be curious. It's, it's fascinating to watch, like how, how do you go about like setting yourself up to be curious?

Gordon Howie: Hmm. I think, I guess I feel like it comes from.

the no expectation thing, because, you know, I would never start a personal project with, okay, this is the agenda. I'm going to make this. It's going to be super cool. And I'm going to get this job and I'm going to get that job. It's going to get millions of likes on social media. You know, it's more about, I saw this really cool thing the other day.

I want to experiment, I wonder what would happen if I try and make that in After Effects. Let's see what happens. And then mess around and then suddenly I've got this really interesting thing that I've never tried before. I'm like, Oh, this is [00:52:00] really cool. And just that feeling of discovery, I think, makes it, yeah, I don't know.

EM: Well yeah, I mean, I think, I think you're speaking to something that's, that's pretty important here. Like, what, what does it do for you? Right? Like, so these feelings of discovery and everything, like, it feels like it lights some kind of spark in you or something that you, that you get a lot of joy out of.

Gordon Howie: And again, it is that because I didn't have any expectation prior, asking simple questions of like, Oh yeah, I really liked this thing that I watched the other day. I wonder if I could try and blah, blah, blah, whatever. Um, and then it just encourages you to go and explore and discover and, and then when you do it.

It is. It feels a lot more rewarding because there was no expectation. I mean sometimes as well it doesn't work out. But then that is okay also because you're like, okay, that didn't work. And I think it just strengthens like your creative intuition. And also you can bring whatever you've discovered and learned back into your client work.

So it, you know, it's like a positive circle rather than a toxic one. Just [00:53:00] focusing on playing around and messing around and just questioning, Oh, I wonder what happens if, and then just see what happens.

EM: I love that. It's just a simple question, right? Like, I wonder, like, what will happen if I press this button or if I press this one?

Because After Effects, as we know, is full of buttons that we don't know what they do. Exactly. Especially effects. Um, I, I've actually been, I think whenever Jake Bartlett released his, like, tutorial effect series on every effect in After Effects. I started I took that as a opportunity to allow myself to be curious a little bit more and because I think you mentioned like the other day.

It's not about the likes or whatever. That's something that's just gravy. You know that you might get some kind of external validation, but I think that internal validation of just like. I guess the click reward. It's like, Oh, what does this do? Oh, what does this do? I can relate to that on my end. So, you know, thinking about these [00:54:00] from the perspective again of this emerging motion designers, they're getting, you know, into the into the world.

Say they have a full time job at a studio. They're a junior. They're really trying to like, you know, make their mark or something. How would you suggest they kind of go about prioritizing play in their creative work, you know? And this is also adding a disclaimer, it's like, their play doesn't necessarily have to be motion focused.

It could be any kind of Yeah,

Gordon Howie: I think, yeah, I would try and set aside time for yourself where you're dedicated to some kind of creative exploration, whether that's within After Effects or like you say, any other medium. Um, because yeah, that time to really, this sounds so cheesy, but you are kind of discovering who you are as an artist as well.

And I think if you're always following tutorials or maybe always stuck in client work and you don't get that moment to push buttons and figure things out for yourself, then how, [00:55:00] yeah, I just feel like it really helps you develop your voice and yeah, your own instincts over, Oh, I know if I do these things together, it's going to give me this look.

Um, or if I take a little bit from what I've learned from Ben Marriott and mix it with like, you know, someone else. What would that look like kind of thing and doing things like short turner or give yourself like an error What could you create in an hour and after effects without looking at a tutorial, you know, can you make something interesting?

I think yeah, just having space to and yeah, I understand when you're working It does become difficult to have the energy to do these things Um, but even like see on a Sunday block out like two or three hours to just sit around and play. And like I say, whether that's after effects or whatever, I think it will kind of help you discover yourself.

It's so cheesy.

EM: It is. It's just cheesy, but it's true, right? You know, it's so, I, I felt this a few times in [00:56:00] terms of like identity of like a loss of a sense of like self throughout my career as I was like, You know, I was only identifying as like the job role that I had, which was an editor at the time before I switched to a full time motion.

And I feel like it's so easy to do that because you get so wrapped up in the Oh, I do this. So I am this, uh, as opposed to I am also a person. I am also an artist and in other ways, or I can do things that aren't just for money and they're just for me. Yeah, the end of the day. And I feel like I like what you mentioned about just giving yourself short time frames to work in something because and I guess also comparing.

That's what you mentioned earlier about. Finish is better than perfect. It's I feel like marrying those two is like, hey, just see what you can finish in an hour or hour and a half or. Maybe if you have an extra time and you get lost in it in a, like, good way, like a rewarding way.

Gordon Howie: Yeah. Um, [00:57:00] just this reminded me of something I feel like it's been a really important lesson I've learned recently is, um, so again, this is maybe like two years ago, I think I wasn't in a great head space.

And like I say, I think there was an element of seeking validation from our work, which isn't healthy. Um, and another thing that was happening was. My imposter syndrome was manifesting itself in a way that I didn't really recognize was happening until I think now looking back I can totally see I was in a really bad thought pattern where come up with an idea and think oh great I'm going to make a short film and it's going to be like this and this and this.

I would do a load of planning and I would feel super confident about it It was almost like I would make the project too big so that I could justify to myself that I could no longer do it. And all that was doing was sort of reinforcing this idea in my head, like, Oh, I, you know, I didn't feel good about myself because of this.

And I think it was because I wasn't [00:58:00] finishing anything. So there came a point where I thought, right, I'm going to stop these huge projects and I'm just going to focus on things that I can finish within a week. So I started doing, um, Monday's challenge. And there's a few other like challenge things out there and I'm doing that something like this where you do it weekly and you're finishing it.

You know, maybe over three years or something, it's been now, it's given me such a greater confidence in myself because I've broken that cycle that was in my mind and I now know that I'm someone who like finishes things and I can finish it. And I know that sounds really like silly, but yeah, it really did help me get out of my funk and just, and also I didn't, I wasn't worrying too much about what the outcome was.

It was just as long as I got it finished. Um, that was like my main objective. So finishing things is so important, I think. And even if you're not massively proud of it, or you're like, Oh, I could do better than this. Then you've got the following week to do something else, to test something different. And yeah, finishing things, I think [00:59:00] really helps give you that confidence of, you know, you've, you're someone who makes things and finishes things.

I think it's, yeah, really, really important. Well, for me anyway, it definitely was, it helped me.

EM: Wow. That is, uh, that's a perfect way I think to end our. Conversation today, um, touched on so many just key points that I think a lot of us when we were younger, newer into the industry that we've all, um, experience and what we can relate to, and I have no doubt that this emerging motion designer audience will be able to relate to quite a lot.

Everything you've been able to share with us. So, you know, before we kind of wrap up for the entire conversation, is there anything else you'd like to add or share with us?

Gordon Howie: Yeah, the main thing I guess I want to just touch on is, you know, now more than ever, there's so many free resources and communities and different ways to grow as a motion designer.

And, you know, the past couple of years have been really difficult, and I know that. And it, I can't imagine what it would be like graduating in this [01:00:00] moment. So what I'd say is just get stuck into as many things as you can, you know, meet as many other motion designers as you can, make loads of shit and just keep making stuff and getting it finished.

Um, and yeah, it's a really fun industry and everyone in it is so helpful. willing to share knowledge. So ask as many questions as you can. And yeah, try and have fun with it. That's what I'd say.

EM: Perfect. Thank you so much, Gordon, for hanging out with us today. Uh, before we say our goodbyes, uh, can you tell us real quick where people can find your work?

Gordon Howie: Sure thing. I'm most active on Instagram at gordo dot motion. And my website and stuff's on there. So yeah, find me on Instagram and I'll say, Hey,

EM: perfect. Thank you so much, Gordon. We'll be sure to, you know, link to all everything in the show notes. Thank you so much for hanging out with us today. I, I am deeply grateful and indebted to you for spending some time with us, but thanks so much, Gordon.

We'll talk to you later. Thank [01:01:00] you. Bye. I want to thank Gordon Howie so much for talking with us today. I definitely recommend to check out the show notes if you want to connect with Gordon further or check out more of his work. I hope you were able to take. something valuable away from our conversation today and relate to it in a way that can help you on your journey to becoming an everyday motion designer.

Thank you for being a fan of the show and please subscribe to the show wherever you listen to your podcast. You can follow the podcast on Instagram at everydaymotion. com Podcast. Don't hesitate to reach out with any questions, feedback, or any other way that you'd like to support the show. Today's music is brought to you by the artist Cozmonkey, and the song is titled Feel the Night.

Also, I'd love to give a big shout out to Matthew Johnston for mixing today's episode. And another big shout out to a fellow motion designer, Maddie Alexander, for editing the episode as well. Thank you both so much. This show would not be possible without your help. Thank you once again for tuning in, and [01:02:00] we look forward to sharing our next conversation with you.

Now let's kick it to the music.